InfoQube IM - Community

Submitted by Tom on 2011/05/19 05:46

Prompted by Dave's frustration with copy in IQ (www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php) I thought to try and simplify the copy dialog would be helpful.

So, here goes (again): my suggestions, (keep in mind that I'm not 100% sure of some of them myself)

1) simplify all the text as much as possible

2) change the order in the copy dialog - move the options for copy within IQ to top of the list.

3) combine the paste dialogues (Top level and sub-item) - I think people would expect the item to be pasted as a sibling to the currently selected item [or simply pasted at top-level if nothing is selected], so I don't see any need for two dialogues.

4) each dialogue box would simply have "Copy" or Paste" in the titlebar - no other title within the window)

5) [off-topic] look at making editing more difficult as it causes many problems when copying and pasting - see first post in thread linked above [/off-topic]

________________

COPY DIALOGUE

Copy selected items

for pasting in IQ

Copy selected items and their sub-items

for pasting in IQ

Copy Tree column only

for pasting into other outliners (tab-indented)

Copy selected cells + column headers

for pasting into other apps (tab-seperated)

______________________________

_____________________________
PASTE AT ANY LEVEL (version A)

Paste as new item

Show the original item in this grid (?)

_______________________________

______________________________
PASTE AT ANY LEVEL (version B)

Paste as new item

Paste as new sub-item *

Clone item = show the original item in this grid **

______________________________________

* maybe this should be just added to the context menu?

** I've 'voted' against use of the word clone, but it could be used IMO as long as it is always clearly & simply explained. ( Discussion here Cloning Problem? (M) )

edit / 2011.07.03 / expanded on #3 above

Comments

Thanks for your work, tom. It seems very good and more or less corresponds to what I suggested in the other thread.

http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/2413#comment-10699

I like the idea of changing the order too.

Edit 1 : Maybe actual original paste dialog is ok actually , and I'm not sure I'd change it. It's more the copy one that's a problem IMO. Just the cloning wording could be added if it becomes a convention

Edit 2 : It's important that another user like Dave can say if that's clear or not. Someone "new".

This dialog is important and should be changed ASAP.

(Now that I look at it and compare the wording with the original menu, plus the options order, it's clear that the original is way too technical and hard to understand for the new user !)

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[quote=Armando]

Thanks for your work, tom. It seems very good and more or less corresponds to what I suggested in the other thread.

http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/2413#comment-10699 [/q…]

I actually missed that post (or did the usual read-too-quickly trick)

[quote=Armando]

Concerning this dialog, it seems that the terminology needs to be made simpler. Maybe something like :

In the selected items, what do you want to copy :

1- Outline column only

2- Selected columns only

3- Full items

4- Full items and their sub-items

The parenthesis might be useless, I'm not sure.

[/quote]

> Maybe actual original paste dialog is ok actually , and I'm not sure I'd change it. It's more the copy one that's a problem IMO.

Copy is more important, but...

I was never a fan of the "Focus item has a parent - Paste under current parent" wording - it's like a tongue twister for the mind

> It's important that another user like Dave can say if that's clear or not. Someone "new".

Absolutely.

Have to see what Pierre thinks too...

> Now that I look at it and compare the wording with the original menu, plus the options order, it's clear that the original is way too technical and hard to understand for the new user !

Agreed.

e.g. the XML info is, I presume, only for advanced people - who can look up the manual or ask here. If it's important, it sould IMO be included at the end of the text & in brackets (XML format) as it's the least important info there.

[quote=Tom]

> Maybe actual original paste dialog is ok actually , and I'm not sure I'd change it. It's more the copy one that's a problem IMO.

Copy is more important, but...

I was never a fan of the "Focus item has a parent - Paste under current parent" wording - it's like a tongue twister for the mind

[/quote]

Yes. I guess my point is that we should still be able to paste easily a sibling or a sub, and as a link/clone or a copy. Loosing these options would not make things much simpler.

It's about finding the right super simple wording... :)

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[quote=Armando]... my point is that we should still be able to paste easily a sibling or a sub, and as a link/clone or a copy. Loosing these options would not make things much simpler.[/quote]

I suspect this not important, but currently we can only paste as a sibling -

as TLI = as sibling of selected TLI

as "child of current parent" = as sibling of selected item

That's why I thought: why have two different dialogues?

Yes, you're right. But there were plans (think it's in Mantis) to include a "paste a sub of currently focused item", and I think it would be useful to not forget that...

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This is reesd's contribution from How do I do a copy and paste? :

[quote=reesd]

[quote=Armando]

Thanks for those comments Dave. We posted at the same time

Concerning this dialog, it seems that the terminology needs to be made simpler. Maybe something like :

In the selected items, what do you want to copy :

1- Outline column only

2- Selected columns only

3- Full items

4- Full items and their sub-items

The parenthesis might be useless, I'm not sure.

[/quote]

Part of the issue is that IQ is both an outliner and a grid (like excel). That is part of its greatness (like ecco), but it leads to confusion in situations like this. The example app that davet had was just an outliner, so the situation is simpler. You are always working with items/rows.

So I think we should have the idea that based on your selection you are doing grid things or item things. With that in mind, I would say something like the following:

If you have full items selected then it copies items with their children (current #4), that is consistent with other outliners. You'll note that davet tried that, but got burned by going into edit mode. For full items there is a copy as (or copy special) which has three options:

Items
Items without children
Items for export (tab indented)

If you have cells selected then it copies cells (current #2). That is consistent with excel and with other gird apps. There is no Copy As for grid selection.

[/quote]

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Armando, Tom, and reesd,

Thanks for the time and effort you have invested in this issue. I can get up to my eyeballs if frustration and walk away for a couple of days and then be willing to come back and give it another go, but I don't think a lot of would be users are willing to do that nor to invest the time that it currently takes to learn IQ. Some of us see the obvious...that the bottom line, is that the UI is going to have to be simplified over time in order for this product to reach the critical mass for Pierre's needed ROI and for our continued availability of IQ. At this point in time, I'm still seeing the value of IQ to be worth the investment of my time, because Pierre is listening and acting on our concerns, and the power of this app is phenomenal.

Back to the issue at hand. In giving copy/paste some more thought, I'm beginning to think it would be best to separate copy/paste and cloning on the menu. That way anyone interested in just a plan ol' copy/paste does not have to get wound up in cloning. Also, I had no idea I could turn a copy/paste into a clone by holding down the ctrl key. Pierre mentioned this in one of his replies to my original post. The point here is you could explain the copy/paste and cloning functions separately in the users manual and cover both the menu and keyboard function for each of these separately if these were handled as separate operations.

Also, I'm wondering if you could simplify things further by separating out the advanced functions into yet another menu item like, for example, Transformations. That way the new user could play workup. That is to say, as a new user I could start with copy/paste in the familiar way, then move up to cloning, and finally learn the advanced functions.

With respect to copy/paste I guess there would be some value in having options as to what to copy, but with respect to cloning, I think all fields should be copied whether they are displayed or not.

Regarding copying sub-items, I think you could simplify this by just making a rule that if you copy a parent you get the subs.

And finally...I still see the selection function as fickle in my mind and a big part of the problem. I think your posts point out some possible solutions here.

Dave

Dave,

I'm only passing through - I think I like your seperate clone and copy idea.

As you've probalby heard there was discussion of the idea of a basic and an advanced user interface - but not of any details so it probably good to think about the possibilities!

An easily extendible context menu could be good (basic / +advanced)

MANTIS

1139

Copy / Paste Dialog Simplification

Modification

average

new

2011-07-03 12:14

Armando

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