Submitted by Armando on 2009/03/23 20:46
This happens when sub-items meet the source. (Like if all items meeting the source were considered top level...)

Comments

I've had similar issues
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-1

Yes, and this is by design. Have you tried using Full hierarchy ?

Armando

2009/03/24 17:14

In reply to by Pierre_Admin

OK, thanks. Full hierarchy works as expected.
But I find it confusing that the "[...] Applies to sub-items" would word only in certain hierarchical cases, as this is not explicit/explained anywhere, I think. Or did I miss something ?
Isn't a sub-item always a sub-item ?

Pierre_Admin

2009/03/24 17:43

In reply to by Armando

It helps to understand how grids are populated:
  1. The source and filters define the items that "belong" to a grid
  2. If context parents is checked, the immediate main parent is added (this will be improved to show grand parents, etc )
  3. If hierarchy is checked, items are grouped under their parent, otherwise each item is listed according to the sort order
  4. If full hierarchy is checked, all sub-items are removed and top level items are repopulated with their sub-items
  5. If save item state is checked, previous item expansion is restored
In IQ, there is not such a thing as a main item, a sub-item. All items are items. Period. Like you, as a person. You may be shown as a sub-item of your parents, but you're a full-fledge item...
 
Applies to sub-item means: Applies to sub-items of items that belong to the grid (re source, etc, unless full-hierarchy is checked).
 
The idea behind IQ, is flexible display, hence the numerous possibilities. Believe me, I use all display settings, depending on what kind of info is displayed in the grid.

Armando

2009/03/24 18:40

In reply to by Pierre_Admin

I'm all for flexibility. But everything should be as explicit as possible. What you're explaining is not made very explicit in the interface, IMO.
 
For me the number 1 goal for IQ should now be : intuitiveness, ease of use, explicitness. Quite a challenge.  I don't think I'm the most ignorant user here, BUT I still struggle with filters and many other things, from time to time. Is my IQ to low to use IQ?
 
I'm also starting to feel that maybe I shouldn't question some functions and features or I'll get some more explanations on what is IQ and the philosophy behind IQ, etc. (I think I shall know enough about IQ's functioning and philosophy by now...), instead of an acknowledgement that maybe something is not very user friendly or not explicit enough or whatever ? (Same things for some issues that I consider to be bugs...)

 
I don't want to get into rethorical debates. I just hate it.
 
> "In IQ, there is not such a thing as a main item, a sub-item. All items are items. Period. Like you, as a person. You may be shown as a sub-item of your parents, but you're a full-fledge item..."
 
I think I understand that a sub-item is an item... Did I say anywhere that sub-items were not real items ?? Aren't we allowed to add adjectives to qualify certain items or is there a rule against that...?  Let's not forget here that human language and mind works a lot by using metaphors -- so let's be a bit forgiving here... Thanks.
 
Now, if "Applies to sub-items" means: "Applies to sub-items of items [sic] that "belong" [sic] to the grid -- meaning that they meat the source -- unless full-hierarchy is checked", then maybe this is how the option should be called... I know it sounds stupid... But how is a user supposed to know that ? And remember it at all time ?
 
Anyhow... Maybe it's just me.

Pierre_Admin

2009/03/24 19:00

In reply to by Armando

>But everything should be as explicit as possible. What you're explaining is not made very explicit in the interface
What you say is certainly true.
 
>I'm also starting to feel that maybe I shouldn't question some functions and features.
Please do question. If I wrote how grids were populated, it is because I believe that it isn't well explained in the documentation and it could help users
 
>instead of an acknowledgement that maybe something is not very user friendly or not explicit enough or whatever
I acknowledge (and have done so in the past too) that some aspects are not user friendly.
 
>I think I understand that a sub-item is an item...
I know you do, but you also wrote: "Isn't a sub-item always a sub-item ?" and the answer to this is clearly: NO. A sub-item is not always a sub-item:
  1. If the parent is not shown, the sub-item is not shown and handled as a sub-item,
  2. Since parents can be added and (in this example) removed, an item may one day have a parent, and the next have none. It will be handled the same way, in either cases.
I hope this help.
 

Armando

2009/03/24 19:12

In reply to by Pierre_Admin

> [...] but you also wrote: "Isn't a sub-item always a sub-item ?" and the answer to this is clearly: NO.
 
you didn't understand what I was trying to say... mostly because I wasn't clear enough.
 
I should've said : "Isn't a sub-item displayed as a sub-item always an item displayed as a sub-item ?. The answer is yes, IMO (if not, then there's something pretty zenlike about IQ...). The thing is, there are different types of sub-items (and this is not explicit in the grid : all sub-items appear to be exactly the same, regardless) : those who meet the source, and those who don't, and that makes things fairely complicated for the user as the different parameters and functions interact.

Pierre_Admin

2009/03/24 19:21

In reply to by Armando

>all sub-items appear to be exactly the same, regardless) : those who meet the source, and those who don't
 
Excellent point. All items that don't meet the criteria could be displayed in a different color (or some other attribute) (as a grid option), whether they are there as:
  • context parents or,
  • as sub-items of items that belong to a grid

Armando

2009/03/24 21:11

In reply to by Pierre_Admin

That would probably clarify it. At the same time, I'm afraid that it would make things even more complicated. Maybe not.
I wonder how could that be visually and clearly displayed, without being overwhelming. I already have so many colors, etc.

jan_rifkinson

2009/03/24 21:23

In reply to by Armando

Perhaps this kind of thing could be helped by symbols rather than colors, etc. Like you, I already use colors for many things as it helps to punch up some items in a long list.  The question is what do I mean by symbols & where would they be placed.  The question of what symbols, be it a flag or an asterisk is open while the where would have to be somewhere obvious like to the left of any such item.  Maybe this would serve as a starting point.  It is clear to me that altho an item may be an item anywhere within IQ, i.e. that it is IQ's basic building block, it is also clear to me that what happens to that item, i.e. how it is used is just as unclear.  I don't know whether to put a smiley face at the end of that last sentence or not but I agree w Armando that it is sometimes frustrating because there are so few parameters.  Just the different syntax rulesone has to remember depending on if it's in the source or the filter or the sort or the date filter is daunting at best, intellectually debilitating at worst.  And, Pierre, even tho you are answering questions  left & right &  I, for one, am extremely grateful for your diligence & patience, after a while if it doesn't slow down, it has to indicate some kind of confusion on this (user) side.
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-1