The Word attachment (sorry!) describes a suggested enhancement to field hierarchies.
I apologise in advance if the current product or items on the roadmap cover this topic already; I haven't found them - but maybe I didn't look hard enough.
Comments
Yes, the field hierarchy work is long overdue...
For those that cannot open MSWord documents, I've copied it here:
From user gregory:
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The current mechanism for creating a field hierarchy is :
To create hierarchy in Field List in the Properties Pane:-
First open the Manage Fields window. Menu>View>Manage Fields or right-click a column header in grid and select Manage Fields. Then find the ID of the "Parent" Field (ID shows in very left-hand column). Select Fields you want to make "sub-Fields" in the list. Enter the parent field ID under "General" on the right-hand side
Frankly, that’s difficult.
Ecco Pro had a separate Folders pane (an Ecco folder equates to an IQ field). Within the folders pane, more-or-less the full functionality applicable to items was also applicable to folders. Thus it was a simple drag-and-drop operation to organise folders into a hierarchy. In addition, in a situation such as:
The folders just below the level of the topmost projects folder were presented as a drop-down list of possible multiple assignments for any item that had a Projects field / column. So it was easy to multiply assign an item to folders.
So I suggest two enhancements to IQ:
Treat field names just like item names, perhaps in a field management pane
Permit a data type which is a bounded list of the items one level up in the hierarchy – so for a Projects field the values presented would be
ØBIS teaching…
ØCaro’n’me
ØDUP
ØeLearning
Øetc.
This would have two advantages:
A major advance in managing fields
The possibility of enforcing referential integrity (albeit only via the user interface) – that would permit IQ to encroach on the more structured domain of relational databases. Indeed it would be possible to go further and import relational databases while preserving primary and foreign key relationships.
Of course, it’s very possible that I’ve misunderstood the mission and capabilities of IQ – if so, please put me right!
Since this is so in properties, I don't see why it shouldn't be in fields. It's a good suggestion. Besides Ecco, UltraRecall had this as well & it is helpful. Besides in UR, one could add an icon to help identify the folder / field.
As a workaround, I've renamed a lot of fields so they are in alphabetic groups. I have found this to be helpful.
So far as I can see, full exploitation of field hierarchies does not appear in the roadmap. And yet it must underlie all sorts of other features we're looking forward to. Please can it be scheduled? Or is it horribly difficult?
Perhaps it isn't in Mantis, however it is definitely planned. The Properties Pane is scheduled for major work, shortly after completing the calendar and this will include this
1) In Ecco, when folders were organized into a hierarchy, and as was stated in Pierre's 06-03-2009 illustrated post, "the folders just below the level of the topmost projects folder were presented as a drop-down list . . ." Presumably that's possible in IQ too, but I can't figure out how to do that. I.E., I have created the field TEST as a parent to sub-fields Test 1, Test 2 and Test 3, and they then show as indented underneath TEST in the Properties Pane, but when selecting a cell in TEST column in a grid, no drop-down list appears. So I've attempted to use auto-assign but haven't suceeded that way either. How do I create a drop-down list of sub-fields, similar to Ecco?
2) Then, from within an Ecco folder (Grid in IQ) it was possible to set up the sub-folder drop-down list (sub-field drop-down list in IQ, hopefully) so that when a sub-folder was selected (from the drop-down list) the line-item-data (Grid Item in IQ) would be added to the selected sub-folder (Field in IQ). How do I accomplish that in IQ?
hopefully I've made myself clear enough so people can understand the quesitons, and sorry if I've missed an already existing instruction/explanation - I searched but could not find
1) In Ecco, when folders were organized into a hierarchy, and as was stated in Pierre's 06-03-2009 illustrated post, "the folders just below the level of the topmost projects folder were presented as a drop-down list . . ." Presumably that's possible in IQ too, but I can't figure out how to do that. I.E., I have created the field TEST as a parent to sub-fields Test 1, Test 2 and Test 3, and they then show as indented underneath TEST in the Properties Pane, but when selecting a cell in TEST column in a grid, no drop-down list appears. So I've attempted to use auto-assign but haven't suceeded that way either. How do I create a drop-down list of sub-fields, similar to Ecco?
2) Then, from within an Ecco folder (Grid in IQ) it was possible to set up the sub-folder drop-down list (sub-field drop-down list in IQ, hopefully) so that when a sub-folder was selected (from the drop-down list) the line-item-data (Grid Item in IQ) would be added to the selected sub-folder (Field in IQ). How do I accomplish that in IQ?
hopefully I've made myself clear enough so people can understand the quesitons, and sorry if I've missed an already existing instruction/explanation - I searched but could not find
thanks
Doug Bartlett
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Hi Doug
1- It's not possible at this point. But depending on what exactly you want to be able to achieve it might be possible to find other ways. (like using forms, etc.).
As you might know Auto assign equations in the "Field management" dialog is used to perform "actions" on other fields when something is added(A)/modified(M)/erased(E) in a field. So I'm not sure how it'd be use in your example.
Seems to me that -- well... at the moment -- the hierarchical disposition of fields in the properties pane is more of a visual thing than something that's truly integrated with the other aspects of IQ (like in Evernote 2 or Ecco, for instance) . Hopefully, Pierre has some plans to expand on that feature... A feature which could be applied to Grids too (was asked by myself a long while ago, but isn't critical enough for my work at this point so I don't consider it "high priority stuff")...
2- I'm not an Ecco user -- just briefly looked at it a while ago. Pierre would be able to answer accurately, I guess. But... If you tell me what exactly you'd like to achieve, without using the Ecco terminology, it might be that there's a way. Seems to me that you want to be able to display the same items in different grid ? If yes it's simple.
In Ecco, I found it handy to create a folder for each individual job, all job folders being sub-folders of the (so-called) parent folder "Project". Next, in my everyday work folders, like To-Do's or Appointments for example, I would import parent folder Project as a column, formatted so that all job sub-folders were one-click available as a drop down list. Then, by selecting any one, or even multiple of jobs from the drop-down list, the associated To-Dos/Appointments/etc Item was automatically added to the job folder(s) selected. I know there are many ways to display the same item in different grids, but I did grow to like the Ecco drop-down list methodology enabling me to work in my main activity folders and then file any information by means of one click into the various job folders.
In Ecco, I found it handy to create a folder for each individual job, all job folders being sub-folders of the (so-called) parent folder "Project". Next, in my everyday work folders, like To-Do's or Appointments for example, I would import parent folder Project as a column, formatted so that all job sub-folders were one-click available as a drop down list. Then, by selecting any one, or even multiple of jobs from the drop-down list, the associated To-Dos/Appointments/etc Item was automatically added to the job folder(s) selected. I know there are many ways to display the same item in different grids, but I did grow to like the Ecco drop-down list methodology enabling me to work in my main activity folders and then file any information by means of one click into the various job folders.
Doug Bartlett
[/quote]
Nice. I have no idea if Pierre hopes to implement that or not.
I just wonder : do you want that feature because "you're used to it" , or does it truly provide more functionality and work flow efficiency ? I'm asking as I couldn't tell at all...
If you could provide a precise sequence of action that you performed in Ecco to obtain a specific result, we could try and see how the same thing could be achieved in IQ's current configuration, and determine of it's slower or less efficient, and to which degree.
From what I can see at the moment, Pierre, which is the video that you have posted:
you have implemented the first thing I suggested - which is a (beautifully neat and consistent) way of manipulating the field name hierarchy (thank you!);
but I'm not sure that you've implemented the semantics which need to go with that essentially syntactic development - and I won't be able to be sure until we get our eager hands on the code!
By semantics, I mean everything that will make field hierarchies useful, which at the moment I don't believe they are (please correct me!). My original suggestion for semantics was essentially the same as the sub-folder drop-down list that Doug is asking for. Have you implemented that in the forthcoming pre-release 14, or will it appear in a later development?
Note for Doug: you have presumably created a field hierarchy using pre-rel 13, which is as I said back in June "frankly difficult". The facility that I see in the video makes manipulating the field hierarchy much easier - it corresponds to point 1 above. But I'm asking whether point 2 above is also addressed in the upcoming pre-rel 14.
Mark, correct, field hierarchy created in pre-rel 13. As per my response just posted one or two messages above this one, I've tried to explain how, when working primarily from within one or two primary folders (IQ Grids) I used the drop-down list for activity/event Item "quick-filing" purposes into various jobs, all jobs being sub-folders of Parent folder "Project".
I'm also an ex Ecco user. I used sub-folders as a way of multiply classifying things, but within the restricted set of possibilities provided by sub-folders. In InfoQube, you can mutiply classify things, but there's no easy way to restrict / validate the possible values. (You can do it using SQL, but I don't think that's great from an ease-of-use point of view.) Ecco's genius was to be very powerful while being reasonably easy to learn (and also its extreme reliability). IQ is greatly more powerful than Ecco, developing rapidly: but still needs lots of polishing (which I guess is one of the reasons that this forum is so active).
[quote=gregory]In InfoQube, you can mutiply classify things, but there's no easy way to restrict / validate the possible values. (You can do it using SQL, but I don't think that's great from an ease-of-use point of view.) [/quote]
Hi Gregory, could you give an example of what you mean by "mutiply classify things" and "no easy way to restrict / validate the possible values" ?
Just trying to get a grip on what you guys are talking about... :)
was a response to a very interesting link that Pierre put up at that time; in it I tried to clarify what I think we need.
My post tried to distinguish between
Classification (where you only want an item to appear at one point in a taxonomic tree - the classic example is biological classification where you are trying to sort out whether it's a bird or a dinosaur, and if it's a bird then is it a chaffinch or a crow); but you might want to divide your to-do list up, so that you can review actions related to theatre OR actions related to live music, provided that you've classified them - I therefore need to classify all my inbox items to help me when I review what still needs doing;
Tagging (where an item can be tagged many times - for example, a Boeing 747 is an aeroplane and a design classic and a defining artefact and anything else you think B747's are - say an environmental catastrophe because they got us all hooked on long distance travel...)
Infoqube is great at the second (and you are a million miles ahead of me in what you achieve with your information management).
It can be made to do the first. For example, I do a simple triage on my Inbox, splitting things up (classifying them) using a field called MyProjects. To do that currently I have to use SQL - so the MyProjects field is defined in the Editor section of the Field management dialogue as
select item as MyProjects from project order by left(item,100) asc
with in addition 'Entry must be in list' set as a property.
You will recognise this as meaning that MyProjects has got to be an existing value in Projects, and it can only be a part of one Project. But I'd hate to have to explain all the thinking that goes into that - we do teach relational database conception to business students here, but it takes a long time and only one in two or one in three of them actually get it! And we don't teach them SQL syntax.
However, once you've got a field hierarchy, it should be easy to use it - so that a task can be classified (it's either a bird or it's a plane, but it isn't both!). The way Ecco did it was as described by Doug; and it's that further use of field hoierarchy that I've asked Pierre to consider again.
At the same time we can link any task to lots of other items - its colour is blue and its colour is yellow and it goes fast and it's intolerant of kryptonite...
Is that any clearer?
Incidentally: Ecco allowed you to say whether an item had to take just one value in the field's children, or could take many - in other words you would force classification or what we would now call tagging.
Classification (where you only want an item to appear at one point in a taxonomic tree - the classic example is biological classification where you are trying to sort out whether it's a bird or a dinosaur, and if it's a bird then is it a chaffinch or a crow); but you might want to divide your to-do list up, so that you can review actions related to theatre OR actions related to live music, provided that you've classified them - I therefore need to classify all my inbox items to help me when I review what still needs doing;
Tagging (where an item can be tagged many times - for example, a Boeing 747 is an aeroplane and a design classic and a defining artefact and anything else you think B747's are - say an environmental catastrophe because they got us all hooked on long distance travel...)
Infoqube is great at the second (and you are a million miles ahead of me in what you achieve with your information management).
It can be made to do the first. For example, I do a simple triage on my Inbox, splitting things up (classifying them) using a field called MyProjects. To do that currently I have to use SQL - so the MyProjects field is defined in the Editor section of the Field management dialogue as
select item as MyProjects from project order by left(item,100) asc
with in addition 'Entry must be in list' set as a property.
You will recognise this as meaning that MyProjects has got to be an existing value in Projects, and it can only be a part of one Project. But I'd hate to have to explain all the thinking that goes into that - we do teach relational database conception to business students here, but it takes a long time and only one in two or one in three of them actually get it! And we don't teach them SQL syntax.
However, once you've got a field hierarchy, it should be easy to use it - so that a task can be classified (it's either a bird or it's a plane, but it isn't both!). The way Ecco did it was as described by Doug; and it's that further use of field hoierarchy that I've asked Pierre to consider again.
At the same time we can link any task to lots of other items - its colour is blue and its colour is yellow and it goes fast and it's intolerant of kryptonite...
Is that any clearer?
Incidentally: Ecco allowed you to say whether an item had to take just one value in the field's children, or could take many - in other words you would force classification or what we would now call tagging.
Mark Gregory, Rennes, France - GMT +1/+2; EST +6
[/quote]
Ok, I see. I understand the use of field hierarchies -- Evernote functioned similarly.
The way I see it, it's use is mostly to allow easy display of hierarchically related sub-fields.
However, I don't see why you'd have to use the SQL syntax you proposed. Aren't you making it a bit more complicated than it is ?
You'd just need to :
1- be in your project grid (the source defining what items would be displayed -- "project" in this case)
2- and use the filter text box (or the column filters) to see what you need to see,
3- + the sort text box to sort the way you want.
4- You could also then group items by sort columns -- this needs some rework though. But if it worked well, I'd use it ALL the time ... Hint hint. I asked for that a long time ago. (grid > group items by sort columns)
The grid source is defined by fields which could be considered Top Level Fields.
Fields used in the filter text box are used to... Filter what's there.
But... I'll let Pierre discuss that issue as I don't know what's planned to "mimic" these Ecco features.
The Word attachment (sorry!) describes a suggested enhancement to field hierarchies.
Comments
The current mechanism for creating a field hierarchy is :
To create hierarchy in Field List in the Properties Pane:-
First open the Manage Fields window. Menu>View>Manage Fields or right-click a column header in grid and select Manage Fields. Then find the ID of the "Parent" Field (ID shows in very left-hand column). Select Fields you want to make "sub-Fields" in the list. Enter the parent field ID under "General" on the right-hand side
Frankly, that’s difficult.
Ecco Pro had a separate Folders pane (an Ecco folder equates to an IQ field). Within the folders pane, more-or-less the full functionality applicable to items was also applicable to folders. Thus it was a simple drag-and-drop operation to organise folders into a hierarchy. In addition, in a situation such as:
The folders just below the level of the topmost projects folder were presented as a drop-down list of possible multiple assignments for any item that had a Projects field / column. So it was easy to multiply assign an item to folders.
So I suggest two enhancements to IQ:
Ø BIS teaching…
Ø Caro’n’me
Ø DUP
Ø eLearning
Ø etc.
This would have two advantages:
Of course, it’s very possible that I’ve misunderstood the mission and capabilities of IQ – if so, please put me right!