Submitted by David_H on 2015/11/29 19:32
I love IQ for tasks management, but still use Evernote for information management.  For two reasons - "tags" and "tag implementation", while not perfect it's a highly effective tagging system that is ridiculously easy to use, it allows grouping tags under categories and the hierarchy of tags are visible in the left navigation bar at all times (as I wish Grids were in IQ, but that's another story).  Tags are one of those things that once you get used to using, you just don't want to go back.  If I had never used them the standard method of using a strict classification system would probably be fine.

I know an IQ item can have multiple parents and display in multiple grids, but I've not found any easy method to make that efficient for the filing of information where you want information to be able to be accessed via tags/labels, whatever you want to call them.  I've played with wikitags but until there is a major revamp there I can't see myself using them.  Similarly I can't see myself using yes/no fields until such time as there is a means to group grids, having hundreds grids is unmanageable (the only other solution I can think of, as I could use grids like tags).

At the same time I hate using two different programs and IQ is by far my favorite.  For those of you using IQ for information management, would you be willing to share how you deal with this issue?  Do you just use a standard system of classification where you are essentially filing things in one place, albeit while applying a few fields to it?  Maybe I just have to stick with using two programs, but I'm looking for ideas.
 

Comments

Definitely would like input on this subject from others.  I am sitting here playing with this and suppose one method might be to use fields like tags, and then just "surf" my tags by clicking on the field in the property pane and selecting "show items new scratch grid".

Hi David,
 
Sunday night here, so I'll complete with more details tomorrow...
 
Interesting question, my IQBase is more than 10 years old and everything goes into it... everything... and I only use a small number of grids, less than 20 for sure, half for personal stuff, half for work related items. In each grid, I enter information about that particular project. I use a mixture of hierarchy and field values. With the improved Wikitags, I have started using it more, though it is still in test, I'll need to get my head into thinking into that mode more to see how well it fits with my habits...
 
Search plays a big role of course, as I'm a bit fan of the Google approach to information management... structure less, search more.
 
Some stuff fits well in the outliner model, others don't. 
 
HTH !
 
Pierre_Admin
 

David_H

2015/11/30 00:22

In reply to by Pierre_Admin

Thanks Pierre.  I am all for the Google method as an adjunct, but otherwise I prefer the structured approach, at least insofar as I want to be able to view all the tags/fields etc in some type of list so that I can filter based on them.  Don't ever want to have to use free form searches other than to find something I can't find by the first method.  Of course that may fall within your definition of Google method, so we may not be in disagreement.
 
Here's an example.  I like to collect quotes which have meaning to me.  On occasion I'll read through them.  So a search wouldn't work for that, without them all having a common value.
 
So if you only have 20 grids, do you mean you have lots of yes/no fields to categorize info?
 
Look forward to hearing more from you and others on this, I'm leaning strongly towards coming up with a way to move everything into IQ.

Like Pierre, I use IQ for everything. Maybe even more than him! ;-) I mean, I use IQ to write articles, my PhD thesis, finance, tasks, project planning, structuring/planing play directing, billing, qualitative data analysis, etc. How's that?

What version of Evernote do you use? 
I dropped Evernote a long time ago, when I realized tags created there were trapped in that context. Hard to export tags! IQ and Evernote are not incompatible per se, but I didn,t feel like separating content. The only thing I keep separate from IQ right now is my calendar (and all external documents; but that's how I want it -- I just link them to projects, tasks, etc when needed). When I'll be able to manage appointments in IQ (I want to be able to sync them with my external devices), it'll be perfect.

My idea of a good tagging system is a system that one can use everywhere, not just in one context, one app. 
I've already posted a lot about tags, wikitags, etc. so I've become lazy when it comes to re-describing what I do and don't do. Hopefully, before anything is changed/added to IQ, tagging, classification "theory", its nuances and the various ways it's implemented elsewhere will be considered. There's no need to reinvent the wheel and repeat the mistakes others have made.

What I do, basically : 1- I organize my tags separately, in AutoHotkey. 2- I insert my tags in a few IQ text fields (this has many advantages over other solutions as those textfields can contain the same tags but have different classification functions)

it's quicker than any other solution I've tried. And by quicker, I mean quicker.

The only problem right now (but I overcome that with scripts) is that it's hard to perform text search/replace in IQ. This is another highly awaited feature.
 
It’s true that, like fields and items, a few other things would benefit from the possibility of hierarchical organization: Grids and forms.


-------------------------------------------------------
Windows 8.1
Sony Vaio S Series 13 (SVS131E21L)
Ram:8gb, CPU: Intel i5-3230M, 2.6ghz

Tom

2015/11/30 12:33

In reply to by Armando

^  a problem in the past with this approach was that you had to be able to write filters.
The column filter (Ctrl+G) now has and/or capabilities which will help those of us who cannot do all that fancy stuff.
 

David_H

2015/11/30 13:42

In reply to by Tom

I don't think Armando's method would work for me.  As I see it I have two options:
 
1. Use yes/no fields like tags.  I like this because:
a. I can group fields.  This is exceptionally important for me, it would allow me to create a field such as "computing" and then groups numerous fields related to computing underneath it.  Then it would be easy to show items using those fields.
 
2. Play with wikitags more.  However I don't see any method for grouping wikitags and I don't want a flat list of hundreds of tags.  I also don't know if there is a way to look at a wikitag and see how many items have been assigned to it, which is data I like to see, with fields I can do that.
 
Any other options I am missing?

Armando

2015/11/30 14:55

In reply to by David_H

[quote=David_H]
I don't think Armando's method would work for me.  As I see it I have two options:
 
1. Use yes/no fields like tags.  I like this because:
a. I can group fields.  This is exceptionally important for me, it would allow me to create a field such as "computing" and then groups numerous fields related to computing underneath it.  Then it would be easy to show items using those fields.
 
2. Play with wikitags more.  However I don't see any method for grouping wikitags and I don't want a flat list of hundreds of tags.  I also don't know if there is a way to look at a wikitag and see how many items have been assigned to it, which is data I like to see, with fields I can do that.
 
Any other options I am missing?
[/quote]

Those problems are all solvable with some text expander (like AHK) that allow you to structure your tags separately, but I understand that there's a high level of geekiness involved.
 

 

What are the essential features of a tagging system? this is what one needs to answer before coming up with any tagging system.

Why? Because tagging is a lot of work (and not necessarily a fun one).


In my opinion, tags should be tangible/visible, understandable/readable, compatible, portable, flexible, reliable/robust and QUICK QUICK QUICK to use. If it takes more than a few seconds to apply a few tags, then it becomes useless.


So:

1- Tags should be text values that can be easily exported/imported/pasted/entered in a coherent format -- comma/space separated format (or something like that). Which doesn't mean that they couldn't be entered with what ever clever UI one wants (checkboxes, clicking here and there, asking siri or cortana to tag this and that, etc.). But ultimately, the values should be there, visible, written and readable, exportable, without having to use some software to decode them.

2- A correlate is that tags should be compatible/searchable with normal text search tools and "filterable" using Boolean logic (like Google does, implicitly; it's a standard).


3- Tags should be flexible : easily created, easily edited (if a tag needs to be changed everywhere it's been applied, it should be easy to do so), quickly applied/deleted to/from anything (any item) and in any quantity : single item or 1000000 at once.



Icing on the cake:

 

5- Tags should be hierarchically structured so that one one tag can encompasses/include many others.

6- tags should be somewhat heterachically structured so that a tag can have multiple parents hence be linked to other themes/tags (like items can have multiple parents)

 

A long time ago, Pierre wrote this (but time flies and there,s so much to do):



[quote]

Tags is stored internally as a text field, but the UI knows to treat it differently:

o        Adding a tag to an item does not erase the other tags, tests for duplicates before adding


o        Search can find complex tags (e.g. with spaces)


o        Adding tags can be as simple as selecting from a list or clicking on a button


o        Tags can be displayed, one by line in a properties pane. Right-click to delete


o        Tags management allows easy rename


o        If tag hierarchy is setup, parent tag search can return the sub-tags


o        Prints much easier than a list of checkboxes, most of which would be empty. If you use text fields for categories, bounderies are hard to set (what goes where?)


o        clicking on a tag, returns all items that have that tag. Great for navigation, cross-linking, etc


o        can be used for quick-and-dirty item-to-item links/grouping


o        tags can trigger field settings and vice-versa


Field are there to stay, don't worry. I'm a database person and I'll continue to use them. But often, a simpler mecanism is better. Time is the essence here. If classifying takes too much time, users won't do it. Yes it will be a mix-bag of all sorts of stuff, but so is the Item field isn't?

[/quote]

So it means that it's feasible!


The only thing I hope if there's such thing as an IQ tagging system, is that it will not limit users to mouse clicks or screen tapping (me, I speak and write and I don't like to have to point to each word in the dictionary to form a sentence...).

 

-------------------------------------------------------
Windows 8.1
Sony Vaio S Series 13 (SVS131E21L)
Ram:8gb, CPU: Intel i5-3230M, 2.6ghz

David_H

2015/11/30 17:12

In reply to by Armando

[quote=Armando]
5- Tags should be hierarchically structured so that one one tag can encompasses/include many others.
 
6- tags should be somewhat heterachically structured so that a tag can have multiple parents hence be linked to other themes/tags (like items can have multiple parents)[/quote]
 
The finest tagging system I have ever used, and it had those features, was the Delicious bookmarking system.  It was both a hierarchically and heterachically structured system that was created automatically as you tagged, and for me it was a thing of beauty.  What it did was created a hierarchy for every single tag, and then include every other related tag under that hierarchy.  The only downside to that approach was that it created a huge list of tags since every single tag contained a (potential) hierarchy, but you could filter so fast just by typing a single letter that it was a complete non-issue.  It additionally allowed for manually created tag collections, for those who wanted to create their own hierarchies, but I found that largely unnecessary.
 
I've attached a screenshot showing snippets of two automatically created groups an example, as I still have it installed, but the browser extensions are no longer actively developed.
 
The service became very popular with geeks, so sadly then Yahoo purchased it, and you know what that means.  They discarded it a few years later.  Just thought you might find it interesting.
 
 
 
 

Tom

2015/11/30 15:11

In reply to by David_H

(Armando got in ahead of me there)
[quote=David_H]
1. Use yes/no fields like tags.  I like this because:
a. I can group fields.  This is exceptionally important for me, it would allow me to create a field such as "computing" and then groups numerous fields related to computing underneath it.  Then it would be easy to show items using those fields.
[/quote]
 
there's two important factors here imo:
1. ease of display within grid
2. ease of filtering/displaying the tags you want
 
[keeping in mind that I'm a relatively basic user of IQ]
I think that using Yes/No fields will struggle with #1; and #2 will not necessarily be easy I dont think...
 
You could create a text field 'Computing' and have a drop-down list of entries (tags) for that field. TBH I cant remember if you can add multiple entries yet from a drop-down list (but seeing as it is now in Wiki field, should be elsewhere soon).
 
You can then filter the whole gird for desired tags using the column filter (Ctrl+G), or filter just the 'Computing' column -- either via right-click and then filter, or using the newly modified column filter.
 
I used wikitags a lot for one project -- to keep track, I created a grid showing/describing all wikitags so as I would use the correct ones.
You could create a 'tag' grid -- it need only have the tags e.g.
Computing
software
hardware
etc
etc
--
or can have as much info as you want (with wikitags though this works better because you can create a link that will open all items with a specific wikitag)

Tom

2015/11/30 15:36

In reply to by Tom

To expand a little --
here's a display of how I used wikis:
 
On the left is my 'Wiki' grid (which I used to keep track of tags used) -- on the right is the Scratch grid that opened when I clicked on the {fir tree} WikiTag link (see hand-cursor)
 
 
Notes:
I created wiki links as sub-items (left pane above) -- I used the parent item for copy and paste to help create the appropriate wikitag field entry.
 
Limitations (again AFAIK):
  1. wikitags can only be created in the WikiTag field (?)
  2. you can only create a link to one wikitag (?)

Tom, thanks for the ideas.  I do need to play around with wikitags a little more.
 
Pierre, if you see this, are there any major upgrades coming to wikitags soon?  I'm asking because if there was I'd probably wait to start putting all my info into IQ.  If on the other hand it's many months away, I'll come up with something based on the existing IQ paradigm.
 
Thanks.

Here's what I'm going to do for now, if anyone sees any major issues please speak up.
 
I'm going to use yes/no fields as tags.  As I see it this meets two very important criteria for me:
1. I can group fields hierarchically in the All Fields property pane.  Tags are personally useless to me without structure.
2. I can visually see my tags at all times, regardless of which grid I am in, which is also important to me.
3. I can assign as many as I want to an item.
 
I figure if and when IQ implements a more elaborate tagging system that meets the above criteria, hopefully it will be pretty easy to retag my items using that.
 
Pierre how difficult would it be, and how much overload would it create to have a number after fields in the property pane, to show how many items use that field?  You have that in the Field Properties dialog, it sure would be nice if it was also in the properties pane.
 
Thanks
 

Pierre_Admin

2015/12/12 00:18

In reply to by David_H

I think this is a very safe and sound way to start at least... Time will tell if adjustments are required. The coming Properties pane improvements (on-the-fly field creation) will help too.
 
>Pierre how difficult would it be, and how much overload would it create to have a number after fields in the property pane, to show how many items use that field?
Quite feasible actually... I've added it to the wish list
 
But did you know that this information is already available:
  • Hold the Ctrl key and hover over fields in the Properties pane will show a tooltip with that (and other) information
  • If you show the Notification pane (I have it docked just below the Properties pane), you can view the same information there. Right-click on the pane for options
HTH !
 
Pierre_Admin
 

David_H

2015/12/12 00:36

In reply to by Pierre_Admin

Had never used the notifications pane, it's awesome.  I see no need for the feature I requested when it's already available via the two methods above.  If anything I think it would make things busier.