InfoQube IM - Community

Submitted by Tom on 2010/02/10 08:40

as of this post we are at

Version 0.9.25Pre-Rel18 build 2010-02-09 20:04:10

Bullets have just been changed prompting a debate here Version 0.9.25PreRel17 is now released !

The new way uses black arrow bullets for expandable items, and circular black outlined/grey bullets for expanded items & items with no sub-items

I think the new way is clearer but agree with Armando when he says:

[quote=Armando]

1- I think the previous "bullet" way was more graphically coherent.

IMO, the new way lacks uniformity (the mix between round bullets and arrows).

[/quote]

Was procrastinating a bit today so messed around a bit with the current bullets -

I think greying out a part of the triangular/arrow bullets would make them more coherent with the current circular bullets

it may be hard to see at this scale but there are various different versions of the arrow bullet there - I think they all look better than the fully black arrow - what do you think ?

Comments

The advantage of the bullet which I like is that is a clear point for drag / drop which was sorely needed. IMHO design should serve function. I don't disagree w the continuity issue but one could imagine a bullet for one thing & a bullet inside a circle as another idea. The 2 sided vs 3 sided triangle or a filled triangle vs an outline of triangle w work only if the triangle is larger. Otherwise it's too subtle.

Jan Rifkinson

Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

http://janrifkinson.blogspot.com

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com

http://janrif.zenfolio.com

After working with them for a couple of days, I'd like to express a very strong preference for getting rid of the bullets on fully expanded items, for users who have "Expand on single click" toggled On. (And, I guess, "Ecco Style Bullets" Off. Ecco style is Ecco style.)

Those who'll be using the bullets to drag will need them displayed...but for advanced users they're clutter, particularly for folks whose Items are paragraphs, flowing into a document.

Rgds

Jerome

[quote=JJSlote]

[...] getting rid of the bullets on fully expanded items, for users who have "Expand on single click" toggled On. (And, I guess, "Ecco Style Bullets" Off. Ecco style is Ecco style.)

[/quote]

Jerome, by "fully expanded item" do you mean :

A- Bullet only for items which are expandable or collapsible : parents, basically, whether they are collapsed or expended parents

B- Or bullet only for unexpanded parents ?

We seem to be pretty much in agreement, but... for my part, I prefer option A. Don't know about you...

I think that the bullet on expanded parents is as important as non-expanded ones as it allows the user to see levels more clearly (like in a academic/scientific document where titles are numbered). Otherwise, you'd only have a buch of vertical lines and a few bullets for those expandable (but collapsed) items/parents.

[quote=Armando]

[/quote]

Sorry, my bad wording. Option A. Fully expanded parents still require a control to collapse them; child-free items don't. Indeed, the absence of a control represents that third state, where the bullet obscures it. For child-free items, when single click expand is On, the bullet looks like a control but has no function that I'm aware of.

Jerome

[quote=JJSlote]

For child-free items, when single click expand is On, the bullet looks like a control but has no function that I'm aware of. [/quote]

But, doesn't uniformity command that grids look the same way whether "single-click" expand is enable or not ?

Anyways, I'm considering adding the following grid properties:

Most of those in Tools>>Options>>General>>Grids
Show/hide bullets when items don't have sub-items

So grids oriented towards text entry/editing, those towards numbers and those towards dates and tasks can have different looks

Afterall, we all know that IQ serves many functions and it is logical to be able to adapt the visual display to best suit each function.

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

But, doesn't uniformity command that grids look the same way whether "single-click" expand is enable or not ?

[/quote]

Hi Pierre

I think uniformity requires that like situations be handled alike, but the presence and shape of the control conveys information the item's state. Just as non-Ecco style users have the arrow-triangle to indicate the existence of hidden sub-items.

Single-click expand is a problematic option anyway, because casual users won't understand that it is primarily meant to toggle dragging via the bullet. Your Grid Options solution would be ideal.

I know these options can tend to proliferate based on our quirky user prefs, but multilevel text chunking is one of IQ's unique strengths as an outliner. A user rearranging paragraphs for his talk is seeking to create a coherent, flowing narrative. That objective is impeded if his items must share the aesthetic of step-by-step driving directions.

Rgds

Jerome

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

[quote=JJSlote]

For child-free items, when single click expand is On, the bullet looks like a control but has no function that I'm aware of. [/quote]

But, doesn't uniformity command that grids look the same way whether "single-click" expand is enable or not ?

Anyways, I'm considering adding the following grid properties:

Most of those in Tools>>Options>>General>>Grids
Show/hide bullets when items don't have sub-items

So grids oriented towards text entry/editing, those towards numbers and those towards dates and tasks can have different looks

Afterall, we all know that IQ serves many functions and it is logical to be able to adapt the visual display to best suit each function.

[/quote]

Pierre,

I came across this & was wondering is #2 actually on your to-do list - or does it need to be added to Mantis ? (I can add if you want)

Hi Tom,

I don't recall seeing it in Mantis. I think it is feasible, so if you'd like this feature, please add it to Mantis.

Mantis 938

"Request: option to hide bullets for items that have no sub-items"

I'd note as well that the Properties and Options panes, which I presume use the grid class, have right-arrow triangles for expandable items, bullets for expanded ones. I think those icon forms look great and are clearer than the arrowed bullets in user grids. Arrowed bullets are too small on a 1920x1200 display, but would be unattractive larger.

The Properties and Options forms have the advantage of allowing the user to distinguish quickly between expandable and expanded items. Arrow in black, bullet in blue (or transparent). As opposed to reorienting a black triangle (the former non-Ecco mode), or adding a tiny nub to the bullet (present global mode.)

Jerome

Of the current choices, I tend to agree w your observations, Jerome.

Jan Rifkinson

Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

http://janrifkinson.blogspot.com

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com

http://janrif.zenfolio.com

I'll quote what I wrote in the other thread :

[quote]

Before, when an item didn't have any children (i.e. : not expandable), it didn't have a bullet. Now it does. Is there a reason for that ? Isn't it easier to see 1- what's expandable 2- or what's expanded when only these two cases have bullets ?

In any case, for me it's easier... :)
[/quote]

First...

So, basically, one other reason why the options pane shown in Jerome's screenshot seems clearer is because there aren't any bullets for those items which aren't expandable (they don't have sub items).

Most outliners are like that.

There shouldn't be too many bullets. Only those items which are expanded or expandable should have some. The reason why different shapes of triangles don't really matter in the end is that it's easy to see if an item is expanded or not, but much less if it's expandable or nor (at a glance) when all items are bulleted.

Second

I like Tom's proposition.