Submitted by Tom on 2009/10/27 06:38
I rarely use copy - am I misunderstanding or is this a bug?
I simply want to copy (or duplicate) an item within the same grid
 
[edit] I should clarify - I'm copying a sub-item, creating a new sub-item & trying to paste into the new (sub) item [/edit]
 
Select an item
Ctrl+C
Select "Selected Items, XML format"
Create new item (Select it)
Paste - nothing happens
-
Okay - what happens is that a new parentless item is created but it doesnt show in the grid as it doesnt meet source
Is this expected behaviour?
 
Back to my desired effect -
How do I simply copy (or duplicate) an item ?
 
 
 

Comments

It is a bug and it will be fixed.
 
For now, once you've copied the item, you must move it to be a sibling of the original item.
 
You can also use Tab-delimited copy:
  1. select the item
  2. copy
  3. insert a new item
  4. paste
note that this way, only grid values are copied, so it isn't a true clone (or copy)
 

Tom

2009/10/27 09:48

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Thanks Pierre !!
 
does anyone know if there's info about copying/pasting in the manual?
I couldnt find using search (but may well have overlooked it in one of the pages with lots of info in it)

Armando

2009/10/27 10:13

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[quote=Tom]
does anyone know if there's info about copying/pasting in the manual?
I couldnt find using search (but may well have overlooked it in one of the pages with lots of info in it)
[/quote]
 
you're right, I don't think there's much stuff about it. It would be good to add it.
You might also want to use this strategy for simple copy paste "the XML way", in the mean time : How to make the item copy/paste process (the complete XML way) easier.

jan_rifkinson

2009/10/27 11:12

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Just to be really clear:
Are you saying that
 
and xml 'copy' is a single item, i.e. a clone -- change in 1 changes the other
and tab-delimited is really a new item w the same values?
 
If this is so, I would suggest a change in nomenclature with a bubble hint for the poor, ignorant user  (like me)
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Tom

2009/10/27 11:25

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[quote=jan_rifkinson]
Just to be really clear:
Are you saying that
 
and xml 'copy' is a single item, i.e. a clone -- change in 1 changes the other
and tab-delimited is really a new item w the same values?
 
If this is so, I would suggest a change in nomenclature with a bubble hint for the poor, ignorant user  (like me)
 [/quote]
Jan,
  1. an XML copy is an exact copy (or "clone") - copy being the important word here.
    ("change in 1 changes the other" only happens when an item has two or more parents and thereby shows more than once)
  2. a tab delimited copy only copies the fields that are visible in the current grid
edited for clarity (I hope :-)
 

Pierre_Admin

2009/10/27 11:27

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A clone is a duplicate, but is a separate individual, so a change to one does not affect the other. IQ does not use the term clone.
 
An item can be shown in many places, sometimes in the same grid. Changes in one location will change the others, as it is the same item.
 
XML copy creates a new item, with the same field-values as the original one. The only bug, which I'll fix, is that it does not preserve the hierarchy
 
Tab-delimited only copies the values displayed in the grid.
 
[edit] Wow! Tom, both of us whote the same thing, just about word for word. Amazing! [/edit]

jan_rifkinson

2009/10/27 12:45

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@Tom & Pierre.
 
Thanks to both of you for replying but I'm still confused as to my original question
 
How does a user CREATE an identical but separate item where changes in original are NOT reflected in the other item & what is this called?
How does a user CREATE an identical item that DOES permit updating of all same items & what is this called?
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2
 
 

Armando

2009/10/27 13:05

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>How does a user CREATE an identical but separate item where changes in original are NOT reflected in the other item & what is this called?
 
Copy->Selected Item(s) XML format
Paste.
 
 
It is possible that the pasted items won't appear in the grid if they don't match the source. See earlier posts.
 
 
>How does a user CREATE an identical item that DOES permit updating of all same items & what is this called?
 
If an item has multiple parents, it will appear under many parents at once. Updating one of them will update all because it's the same item... shown under different parents. There's no name for that. It's just an item with multiple parents... Like you can have multiple parents yourself and appear in different context. The only Star Trek twist in IQ is that an item can appear in many places simultaneously... :)

Tom

2009/10/27 13:07

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[quote=jan_rifkinson]
How does a user CREATE an identical but separate item where changes in original are NOT reflected in the other item & what is this called?
[/quote]
Create using the XML option when copying
That's a copy (until you modify one or other)
 
[quote=jan_rifkinson]
How does a user CREATE an identical item that DOES permit updating of all same items & what is this called?
[/quote]
The way I always do that is by drag & drop the item with the Control key pressed
It's simply an item that is shown more than once (possibly with more than one parent).
 
Refer to two posts above for info on copying an item using Tab delimited option.

I've made enhancements to the XML copy/paste:
  1. Items are now pasted under the same parent as the focused item
  2. If copying to the same file, users have the choice between creating new items, or simply add the items under a new parent. Adding a new parent can now be done through drag-drop (as before) and through copy/paste:

 

Armando

2009/10/31 01:11

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I think it works well.
Only thing maybe : I have the feeling that new users will be confused by the "Put the items as children to the parent".
I'm not sure how it should be done though.
Maybe Jan could help with that ?

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/04 10:35

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Pierre, Armando -- Taking a stab at this dialog syntax
As it is currently constructed, the problem is

Lack of parallelism, i.e. "Create"' vs "Put".  I think it might be easier to understand if it were worded something like:
  • paste items as new items under current parent, i.e.does not update automatically
  • paste items only as links to current parent, i.e. updating one, updates all
HTH
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2
 

Tom

2009/11/04 12:16

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[quote=jan_rifkinson]
Pierre, Armando -- Taking a stab at this dialog syntax
As it is currently constructed, the problem is
 
Lack of parallelism, i.e. "Create"' vs "Put".  I think it might be easier to understand if it were worded something like:
  • paste items as new items under current parent, i.e.does not update automatically
  • paste items only as links to current parent, i.e. updating one, updates all[/quote]
[Jan, I hope this doesnt come across brusque (I'm rushing)]
 
I find the update part very confusing - why should it update? - I mean I know why, but that's still my initial response -
if pasting an item's contents, I think most people will expect a new item to be made (?)
 
The other (adding second parent / showing the item in another grid or part of grid) is an unexpected bonus when pasting & needs to be clearly explained so understood by all
 
Also the word 'links' confuses the issue as one would tend to think it's just going to be shown as a link or shortcut to the original item
 
Dont have time now to be more constructive

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/04 16:18

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Tom, when u get some time, consider some changes & let's continue to dialog if you think it's worthwhile.
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Tom

2009/11/04 16:39

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[quote=jan_rifkinson]
Tom, when u get some time, consider some changes & let's continue to dialog if you think it's worthwhile.
[/quote]
 
absolutely, hopefully other chip in as well

Armando

2009/11/04 18:54

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Something like that, maybe ?
 
Paste the item under current parent :
- as a new item  (ie : create a full fledged new item under current parent)
- as the same item (ie : the same item will now have 2 or more parents)

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/04 19:58

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[quote=Armando]
Something like that, maybe ?
 
Paste the item under current parent :
- as a new item  (ie : create a full fledged new item under current parent)
- as the same item (ie : the same item will now have 2 or more parents)
[/quote]
 
I like it, Armando. Yours is much clearer.  However, here's where I get stuck.
 
The common user (me) may not get the importance of a new item vs the same item w multiple parents so I think we need a short handed practical reason for a user to use one over the other. That's why I was trying to find the right words to explain that in one case the item will be universally updated (same  item different parents) vs new item in a different location.
 
But the parallelism is excellent.
If I was doing a final edit I would suggest the following:
 
Paste the item under current parent :
- as a new item  (a child of the current parent)
- as the same item (with multiple parents, i.e. a copy)
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Armando

2009/11/04 20:40

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It would be nice to hear what others prefer...

Tom

2009/11/05 07:11

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Quote Armando
Paste the item under current parent :
  •  - as a new item  (ie : create a full fledged new item under current parent)
  •  - as the same item (ie : the same item will now have 2 or more parents)
 
Quote Jan
Paste the item under current parent :
  • - as a new item  (a child of the current parent)
  • - as the same item (with multiple parents, i.e. a copy)
 
 
I like the direction this is going Armando - it's much clearer
I like Jan's emphasis - I think the word 'copy' is confusing though - if it's the same item it's not a copy as such, so best to avoid. I guess it's simply(?!) an extension of how an item can be shown in different grids
 
 
Currently the dialogue says:
 
Paste options...
Focused item has a parent - what do you want to do ?
  • Create new item(s) and put these under the parent
  • Put the item(s) as children to the parent
    (i.e does not create new items, simply add new parent links)
 
.
Here's my attempt:
 
Paste options...
Focused item has a parent - what do you want to do ?
  •   Create new item(s) at same level as focused item
  •   Add the item(s) at same level as focused item 
      (ie : the original item(s) will be shown under an additional parent)
 
 
I think the first option is much clearer - it avoids the parent word which is the key word for the second option. Not so sure about the second option though (?)
EDIT/ edited second oiption
 
EDIT2 / I notice the P in second option in current dialog is underlined - i.e. is a shortcut - i.e. we wont be able to underline words - maybe bold them?
 

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/05 08:36

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Sorry, no pride of authorship, not trying to be difficult but I'm confused again.
This is being over thought from a technical POV.
This is a hint in a dialog, not a a full explanation  (that goes in the manual)
 
My point is a normal user wants to know the effect of doing one over the other
and
they want a clearly delineated choice:
1. Do this & you get this result
2. Do that & you get that result
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Tom

2009/11/05 09:31

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I'm not noted for simple clarity Jan
 
Actually one could leave out the initial parent thing completely -
_____________________________________
 
Paste the item:
  • as a new item
  • as the same item (with multiple parents)
_____________________________________
 
I personally find the 'under current parent' thing confusing - even though I know what it means I have to think it out each time I read it
 
And if I'm pasting at a lower level in the hierarchy I would expect it to be pasted at the same level as the selected item
Would you think the same?
 
(with multiple parents) could also read (giving it multiple parents)
 

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/05 09:40

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[quote]
Paste the item:
  • as a new item
  • as the same item (with multiple parents)[/quote]
Maybe
 
Paste the item:
  • as a new item
  • as a clone of the original (updating one, updates all)
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Armando

2009/11/05 10:11

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Hi guys,
 
[quote=jan_rifkinson]
 
Paste the item:
  • as a new item
  • as a clone of the original (updating one, updates all)
 
[/quote]
 
I don't think that the term clone should be used. It's not a clone. It's the same item.
 
I like Tom's simplicity (even if he modestly dismisses it...).
 
Yes, no need to say "under current parent" -- it's confusing.
Like Tom, I have to reread it to make sure I understood. It just pastes at the same level, as expected, so everything is ok.
 
However... I think that a line of explanation for each options (as Pierre proposed in the actual implementation) is better if it gives a more complete explanation.

Tom

2009/11/05 10:46

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[quote=Armando]
I like Tom's simplicity (even if he modestly dismisses it...).
[/quote]
thanks - but it's actually a shortened version of Jans
 
[quote=Armando]
However... I think that a line of explanation for each options (as Pierre proposed in the actual implementation) is better if it gives a more complete explanation.
[/quote]
agreed

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/05 10:53

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Tom , I'm not sure which version Armando is referring to so why don't you take a stab out of boiling it down to where we are now w single line explanation underneath. OK?
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Tom

2009/11/05 17:43

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I think, for the second option you have to avoid 'clone' and 'copy' as they give the wrong impression (by definition, both would be separate from original)
The update thing could also be misinterpreted (I think) - e.g could be one item linked to another & updating somehow
 
The first option (below) is what people would expect in both cases (I think) - new item gets pasted/created at the level of focused item - does it really need a clarification? if so maybe what I just wrote "pasted/created at the level of focused item" ?
Second option - you need enough info so as someone who hasnt come across it can understand
How about this 
 
Paste:
  • as new items
  • as the same items i.e.
    the original items will be shown under an additional parent
 
& then the paste at top level could say something like
 
Paste:
  • as new items
  • as the same items i.e.
    the original items will be also shown in this grid (at top level)

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/05 18:35

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At this point I think it would be more productive for me to butt out as I feel I am not on the same page w all of you -- that makes me the soldier out of step, not the other way around & I think I'm just making things even more complicated. So apologies for that.. No sour grapes,  just trying to be practical for the group..... and poor Pierre.
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Tom

2009/11/06 05:00

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Hey Jan,
 
I didnt mean to offend in any way. I know I can be very direct in my comments/criticisms.
As you may have noticed I also really enjoy this kind of thing - haggling over the word details so-to-speak.
 
All the best
Tom
Also wanted to say - if you are unclear or unsure why I object to use of any particular word please ask.

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/06 10:22

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Tom, thanks but -- reallly, not to worry -- no offense taken. I honestly feel like I'm on a different page & muddying the waters. 
 
I figure if I -- not overly brilliant but who has been around these type programs since Lotus Agenda -- has a hard time getting my head around a concept , then it's going to be 10x as hard for someone new to the program so my aim is simplicity & directness as in If I do this, I get that.
 
Sometimes this kind of conversation becomes a bit 'dense' because -- IMO -- different people are comiing to it from different levels of expertise and so they bring different degrees of exatitude to the table. And sometimes I find that the exactitude is part of the problem because it assumes the user has the general concept down.
 
I assume nothing of the sort. In gen'l for this kind of thing, it is MO that each step should be posed as tho talking to a new user.  Otherwise It could be like missing the forest for the trees.
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Armando

2009/11/06 13:03

Permalink

[quote=jan_rifkinson]
Tom, thanks but -- reallly, not to worry -- no offense taken. I honestly feel like I'm on a different page & muddying the waters. 
 
I figure if I -- not overly brilliant but who has been around these type programs since Lotus Agenda -- has a hard time getting my head around a concept , then it's going to be 10x as hard for someone new to the program so my aim is simplicity & directness as in If I do this, I get that.
 
Sometimes this kind of conversation becomes a bit 'dense' because -- IMO -- different people are comiing to it from different levels of expertise and so they bring different degrees of exatitude to the table. And sometimes I find that the exactitude is part of the problem because it assumes the user has the general concept down.
 
I assume nothing of the sort. In gen'l for this kind of thing, it is MO that each step should be posed as tho talking to a new user.  Otherwise It could be like missing the forest for the trees.
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2
[/quote]
 
I agree with everything you said.
and this is the reason why terminology needs to be chosen carefully.
 
To take the clone example : a clone is not and entity and another one making only one entity. It's a copy.
So the word needs to be avoided when talking about multiple parents.
 
The problem is that IQ uses a few ways of doing things which are powerful but not well known or not part of most users/potential users' habits.
 
How does URP deal with multiple parents, etc. ? What's the terminology ?
I think it refers to it as linking.
 
At the same time, I understand IQ should borrow the most used terminology in the outlining software community to help understanding.
 

Pierre_Admin

2009/11/06 13:30

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URp uses the term "logical linking" which IMO means nothing and is very confusing (they get lots of questions about it on their forum)
 
 

Armando

2009/11/06 13:56

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[quote=Pierre_Admin]
URp uses the term "logical linking" which IMO means nothing and is very confusing (they get lots of questions about it on their forum)
 
 
[/quote]
 
I agree, it's not better at all.
 
The dialog for the copy paste in the IQ version I have now (H5)  seems clearer to me. It has changed -- if I'm not mistaken -- since the first "H", for the better.
Jan : have you seen the changes ?
 
I think the "as links to existing items" part misleading as these items are not links. The links are between items and other items (like sub items< --> parents).
 
It should be something like "as the same item with a link to the current parent."
 
Whether this is complicated or not, it'S English and if one reads carefully it means what it means. Nothing more, nothing less...

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/06 14:41

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[quote=Armando]
[snip]
The dialog for the copy paste in the IQ version I have now (H5)  seems clearer to me. It has changed -- if I'm not mistaken -- since the first "H", for the better.
Jan : have you seen the changes ?[/snip] 
Whether this is complicated or not, it'S English and if one reads carefully it means what it means. Nothing more, nothing less...
[/quote]
 
True so would it be more accurate to say:
 
ADD copied items to this grid
PLACE copied items in this grid (for viewing purposes only)
 
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Similarly, if pasting the items as main items of a grid (same or a different grid), the user has the choice between creating new items, or simply put the items in this other grid:
 
 

jan_rifkinson

2009/10/29 09:20

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Pierre, I appreciate the effort but I still find the new dialog confusing.
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Pierre_Admin

2009/10/29 09:32

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  1. Is it the way it is written? Perhaps you can help me rephrase into proper english
  2. Or are you not sure what the new option actually does (the first one does what URp calls a logical link, the second assigns whatever field is required to put the item in the current grid)
 

jan_rifkinson

2009/10/31 19:06

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[quote=Pierre_Admin]
  1. Is it the way it is written? Perhaps you can help me rephrase into proper english
  2. Or are you not sure what the new option actually does (the first one does what URp calls a logical link, the second assigns whatever field is required to put the item in the current grid)
[/quote]
 
Pierre -- w apologies, I'm working thru the flu -- currently w 101 temp so I'm not thinking straight. I'll get back to you w a response that hopefully makes sense in a few days. Thanks for the update. It, too, will have to wait for my head to get straight..
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Pierre_Admin

2009/10/31 19:30

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Take care, and I hope you'll get over the flu soon (and I hope it isn't H1N1)
 

Armando

2009/11/01 01:43

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Copying the content of a cell by just focusing on the cell/field (without entering edit mode), and pressing ctrl-c is not as intuitive as it use to be. It's not too bad, but if one does ctrl-c and the last chosen option via the ctrl-shift-c dialog is not the right one (Selected grid rows and columns), it won't work as expected.
 
Suggestions :
 
1- I wonder if we could have the reverse shortcut keys : ctrl-c presents the user with the dialog and the different copy options, ctrl-chift-c allows to repeat the last option chosen (that could even be explained in the dialog).
 
I believe there are more chances that this will be more intuitive as it's preferable to be presented with options than thinking that ctrl-c doesn't work if the default option for its action is not the expected one.
 
 
2- or.... Copying the content of a cell by just focusing on the cell/field  could still function by default when focus is not on full item, but on specific columns...? Not sure which one is the best.
 
What do others think?

Armando

2009/11/01 01:43

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Take care Jan!

jan_rifkinson

2009/11/04 10:42

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Both.
By 'main item' do you mean TLI?
 
I've mostly forgotten about URp commands
By this do you mean something similar to <CTRL>K
 
Once i get this stuff straight in my head maybe I'll be able to add something to the syntax
 
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield CT USA
HP Blackbird Vista Ultimate SP-2

Tom

2009/10/29 09:49

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Jan,
what's your understanding so far ? -
did the explanations above from Armando & me make sense to you?
[quote=Tom]
[quote=jan_rifkinson]
1)  How does a user CREATE an identical but separate item where changes in original are NOT reflected in the other item & what is this called?
[/quote]
Create using the XML option when copying
That's a copy (until you modify one or other)
 
[quote=jan_rifkinson]
2)  How does a user CREATE an identical item that DOES permit updating of all same items & what is this called?
[/quote]
The way I always do that is by drag & drop the item with the Control key pressed
It's simply an item that is shown more than once (possibly with more than one parent).
[/quote]
 
In order to do #2 here, you will also be able to copy as XML, and then select the second option on Pierre's screenshots of the paste dialog box.
NOTE: 1) & 2) here relate to the first & second options in each of Pierre's screenshots,
 
I presume the Copy dialoge will have to be modified as well - a little at least