InfoQube IM - Community

Submitted by davet on 2011/05/15 21:32

When cloning goals from a Project grid to a Goals grid I get unexpected results.

I get one result before a refresh and a different result after the refresh. Is this normal? (Answer turned out to be NO. So, I reported this in Mantis. Ref: http://mantis.sqlnotes.net/view.php?id=1126)
After the refresh a comparison between InfoQube and ECCO is different. Is this normal? (Answer turned out to be YES)

See video: /drupal5/files/351/Cloning.swf

Sorry for wandering mouse in the video. I don't know why that is happening. I did not record it that way.

Dave

Comments

By design. This is controlled by turning on or off Context Parents for the grid.

Jon

Jon,

Thanks for your help. I didn't know that I could switch from a hierarchical list to a flat list toggling Context Parents...that's neat!

However, I am still wondering about what the answers to questions 1 and 2 above are. Could someone help me with that?

Thanks,

Dave

I figured out the answer to question 2. That is I need to use the Properties pane to understand the whole hierarchy and where cloned items reside.

Now I'm wondering if question 1 is a bug. That is when I clone an item, shouldn't IQ preform a refresh so that the first look at the clone does not change when I do a refresh?

Dave

[quote=davet]

I figured out the answer to question 2. That is I need to use the Properties pane to understand the whole hierarchy and where cloned items reside.

Now I'm wondering if question 1 is a bug. That is when I clone an item, shouldn't IQ preform a refresh so that the first look at the clone does not change when I do a refresh?

Dave

[/quote]

Hi Dave,

I'm not sure about what you mean by "use the Properties pane to understand the whole hierarchy". Are you talking about the "Parents" section (which is certainly useful when an item has multiple parents)?

As for your other question, see my previous post. It might be a bug.

P.S. :

As I stated in some other thread, there's really no such thing as a "clone" in IQ. An item, wherever it's seen, is always the same item. It's not a clone (a clone being an identical copy). Unless you explicitly copy an item and create another independent one that's identical (except for the IDitem, of course).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 2

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU:Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Hi Armando,

[quote=Armando]

P.S. :

[/quote]

Some of us would say InfoQube does cloning. In the context of outliner software, many people think of cloning as "same item may appear in multiple locations":

With Cloning (i.e. multiple parents) (same item may appear in several locations)

Examples: ADM, Brainstorm, MyInfo, Notecase Pro, Surfulater, UltraRecall, PersonalBrain, InfoQube

Ref: http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/1506

Dave

[quote=davet]

Some of us would say InfoQube does cloning. In the context of outliner software, many people think of cloning as "same item may appear in multiple locations":

With Cloning (i.e. multiple parents) (same item may appear in several locations)

Examples: ADM, Brainstorm, MyInfo, Notecase Pro, Surfulater, UltraRecall, PersonalBrain, InfoQube

Ref: http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/1506

Dave

[/quote]

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of that as I've used a bunch of PIMs before IQ. However, I think it's unfortunate... as a clone is ... well, an identical copy or a close imitation. And it's none of those. It's not a copy and it's not an imitation. It's the same item, viewed in different contexts.

The reason I insist is that it's never obvious which meaning one gives to "clone". I'm actually surprised Pierre used the term himself in the thread you refer to as he himself insisted on that difference a few times.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 2

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU:Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Here : http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/1152#comment-4328

That said, the important thing is just to be clear about how we use terms. If we decide on the "clone" convention, so be it. I'll adhere to it 100%. It's just that there has been conflicting info here and there -- and I can certainly see why as this "clone" term is far from defining a precise reality.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 2

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU:Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Armando,

I personally think clone should be an allowable term with respect to InfoQube. I recommend that the term be put into the Glossary and defined using the definition shown in yellow below:

Ref:http://forums.omnigroup.com/showthread.php?t=7489

Just saying that item has multiple parents does not cut it. What about the case where an item has multiple instances, but only one parent? See below:

I have worked in Fortune 500 companies where people got completely wound around the axle because certain terms were not clearly defined. That is to say one group of people thought a term meant one thing while another group of people thought the same term meant something else. People would often say, "Please define your use of the term XYZ for me." Some people think this is a nit, but I saw an expensive problem result in a project because one team member thought "meantime between failure" meant one thing while another team member thought that meant something else.

The lesson I learned was define your terms and use them consistently.

Pierre would need to sign off on this.

Dave

I'm a big fan of precise terms (i.e : terms with clear definitions...).

>Just saying that item has multiple parents does not cut it. What about the case where an item has multiple instances, but only one parent? See below:

Sure. To me that definition is clear enough [edit : meaning : the one you suggested] . I always defined "cloning" (errr.. that "thing") as the ability to display an item in various contexts, simultaneously or not. Contexts being : various parents, various grids, maps, gantts, etc. And this exactly what IQ does, through parent linking or just adding data to some fields so that an item meets the grid's filter(s) etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 2

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU:Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Re "clone", I'm against it's use for {same item - several locations} - but I dont come from a background where it is used that way. The word actually means exact copy, so it's use would definitely confuse people who are not coming from that background (where it is used for same item - several locations )

I think use of the word clone is unhelpful in IQ because of the flexibility of IQ - it can be relatively easy to show an item in this grid or that grid.

Also, IQ does offer the option to create an exact copy - which would lead to more misunderstanding if the clone word were used.

[quote=davet]

Just saying that item has multiple parents does not cut it. What about the case where an item has multiple instances, but only one parent?

[/quote]

very true

[quote=Armando]

Hi Dave,

[/quote]

Armando,

Yes, I was talking about the F4 Properties pane that shows an item's Parents and also has hyperlinks to where the item is used (Shown in X grids). I was concerned that unlike ECCO, IQ displays only a partial list of the total hierarchy (see example below), so I would not be able to find where items were displayed multiple times.

ECCO:

    Project 1
       Goals
           Goal 1
           Goal 2
   Project 2
       Goals
           Goal 3
           Goal 4

InfoQube:

Goals
- Goal 1
- Goal 2
Goals
- Goal 3
- Goal 4

Dave

[quote]

When cloning goals from a Project grid to a Goals grid I get unexpected results.

I get one result before a refresh and a different result after the refresh. Is this normal?

[/quote]

It could be normal, but I think that in your specific case where Auto-update seems to be ON , it might be a little bug (if auto-update was off it would be normal). Context parent (blue items) should probably appear without having to manually refresh

Auto-update is set in the grid properties dialog : grid (menu) ->Properties ; then in "Manage grid"->view->gird auto updates.

Could you check if it is on or off ?

[quote]

2.After the refresh a comparison between InfoQube and ECCO is different. Is this normal?

[/quote]

I don't know. It depends on the display options you selected. In IQ you have many different options, and some are a bit tricky at first. (some should probably be renamed or slightly changed.)

There are many threads about these options. There's 1. Grid Display Modes in the manual, which covers only context parents and hierarchy. I find it a bit confusing, but maybe it's just me.

(The manual is clearly a bit confusing at this point (too many sections that should be grouped, especially after section #12... Way too many sections there covering all kinds of subjects. Many of those should be put under one section... Anyhow)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 2

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU:Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Hi Armondo,

[quote=Armando]

[quote]

When cloning goals from a Project grid to a Goals grid I get unexpected results.

I get one result before a refresh and a different result after the refresh. Is this normal?

[/quote]

Auto-update is set in the grid properties dialog : grid (menu) ->Properties ; then in "Manage grid"->view->gird auto updates.

Could you check if it is on or off ?

[/quote]

I checked auto-update and it is on. So it does appear to be a bug.

Dave

I want to make one last comment about cloning and then move on. You core guys that have been around here for a long time can do what you like, and I'll butt out.

The word cloning is used extensively in the outliner world. Its use goes back to the beginning of outliners starting with ThinkTank and More. I know that Dave Winer used that term when teaching Doug Baron how to do it in More. Ref: http://davewiner.userland.com/outlinersProgramming

I showed Doug Baron how to do hoisting and cloning (as usual Doug one-upped me significantly -- his implementation of cloning was absolutely magnificent).

Consider the fact that when someone puts together a competitive feature list for InfoQube and there is a checkbox for cloning capability (cloning) , are you going to tick the cloning feature box? If so--in my humble opinion--it should be defined in the glossary, and it should be okay to use the term within the IQ world.

You might want to consider also this differentiation between copying and cloning used in MyInfo:

Dave

Dave,

i actually think that you're opinion is possibly much more important than mine here - because you come from this outliner background.

At the end of the day it could come down to where Pierre thinks the majority of IQ users are going to be coming from.