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Submitted by reesd on 2010/09/16 15:46

I find myself confused again with how the Grid view options work. I don't know if its a bug, or I am just missing something, but its just not working the way I expect it to.

This is with 0.9.25A.

Here is a sample hierarchy viewed in TestGrid. testA and testB are in TestGrid. The rest are children.

testA (TestGrid)

testA1

testA11

testA2

testB (TestGrid)

testB1

testB2

#1 - With Hierarchy ON, Full Hierarchy ON, Context Parents ON, Save Item State ON I see the full tree...

#2 - With Hierarchy OFF, Full Hierarchy OFF, Context Parents ON, Save Item State ON. I still see the same thing which confuses me. Shouldn't the children NOT be visible?

#3 - Ok, now I add testB2 to TestGrid and refresh. I get the following. Why is testB1 gone, but other non-TestGrid children (testA1, testA2) still around?

#4 - Finally I turn Context Parents OFF and refresh. For some reason testB1 is back. I also have two testB2, but I can understand thnat because hierarcy is turned off so each individual TestGrid item is listed

Thanks,

dave

Comments

Book page: 1. Grid Display Modes shows the various display setting and explains in what situation each is useful

moved to "Context Parents" only shows the first parent.

Hi David,

I'll call your screenshots 1,2,3,4

Re screenshot Nr.3

That with the sub-items is confusing - it may have been explained before in the forum, but it is not explained in the manual page AFAICS.

I cant explain why it happens - but what happens is that where a sub-item meets the source, only that sub-item is shown.

As I say I dont know the logic of it or if it is even intentional / desired bahaviour.

(It's comparable to the behaviour when you drag an item to become a sub-item of another and none of the other sub-items show - See beta 9.25a > disappearing sub-tems after drag-drop (needs confirmation) for better explanation).

Nr.4

In #4 all the sub-items are shown because they are being treated as just sub-items - the relevant sub-item is being shown as a TLI anyway so this is correct and logical.

I thought Context Parents would be irrelevant here but it does seem to make a big difference (between 3 & 4) - is this correct Pierre?

EDIT - I can see that Context Parents actually is relevant - it forces a hierarchy display (in this example anyways). Still unsure if this is best behaviour (?)

To get a better understanding of the different display modes, it is best to turn off "Save item state" as it just adds to the confusion.

If you can, re-show the 4 cases, we'll then be able to answer questions if any.

v0.9.27 will bring changes / simplifications to the grid display. Stay tuned !

Hi Pierre,

I turned off "save item state" and the results are exactly the same. I just have to manually expand the items.

So my questions still stand, numbered with the pics above.

The main one is #2. If I understood what hierarchy and full hierarchy did maybe I could get my head around some of the others. Why do I see children when hierarchy is off? Or put another way, how do I show just the items that are actually in the grid without their children? What is hierarchy for?

And #3 is just strange. Why does a child's sibling dissapear if its in the current grid? Form Tom's reply (thanks Tom) It seems its known behavior, but not understood behavior.

Thanks,

[quote=reesd]

[/quote]

This has been confusing since the beginning but it's in fact simple.

The problem here is the terminology.

hierarchy off doesn't mean that you can't see items hierarchically, it only means that IQ will show as TLIs any item that meets the source and filters. Normally, when hierarchy is ON, those items which aren't TLIs in the first place can only be seen as SLIs. (However this isn't always the case as there are issues with hierarchy preservations... Which should be fixed in a few months after version 0.9.26)

Note user can choose to expand these the TLIs if they have children, or not. This is very convenient, but the terminology isn confusing.

Nobody ever found a satisfying term to replace the actual ones. One that's short and easy to understand.

[quote=reesd]

And #3 is just strange. Why does a child's sibling dissapear if its in the current grid? Form Tom's reply (thanks Tom) It seems its known behavior, but not understood behavior.

[/quote]

To me, this is a bug that's always been here and was never fixed. And it was debated at great length at least 3 times and I never got a precise answer.

Examples :

http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/169#comment-565

Context Hiearachy problem

It has nothing to do with having "save item state" on or off. In all my tests, I never left it ON.

The problem is easy to summarize...

Normal IQ hierarchy Definition : When Hierarchy is ON, but Full hierarchy is OFF, displayed SLIs should ALL meet the source.

However this is not always the case:

1- if, among a group of SLI, no other sibbling meets the source, ALL SLI not meeting the source will still be displayed. But They shouldn't as this goes against the definition.

2- As soon as a SLI sibbling meets the source though, all others SLI not meeting the source disappear... This is OK, but why is the rule applied only when at least one sibbling meets the source ??? It should always be applied.

Pierre ?

[quote=reesd]

And #3 is just strange. Why does a child's sibling dissapear if its in the current grid? Form Tom's reply (thanks Tom) It seems its known behavior, but not understood behavior.

[/quote]

Hi Dave

v0.9.27 will introduce a new grid concept and a true flat view. The current flat view still shows expand buttons when there are children. It is by design but can lead to confusion. That answers your #2 question. There are 2 items in this flat view (testA and testB), the fact that subs are showing is that you expanded them and have "Save item state" ON. Turn that OFF and you'll have a true flat view

As to #3, Notice how you now have 3 items checked for TestGrid. This means that your flat view should show 3 items (testA, testB and testB2). Now since you have context parents checked and since testB is a parent of testB2, it is shown under it.

In 1. Grid Display Modes, this #3 view is useful to display contacts (and hide other non-relevant sub-items) -- please compare the #1 and #2 in that page to understand what that view brings, in terms of efficient information management.

HTH

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

[/quote]

Hi Pierre, we need to discuss this issue #3 as it's not that easily explained .

I thought I would share a discovery (for me at least), that has been confusing me for two years now and I think is critical to understanding all of this.

"Filter criteria applies to sub-items" only applies to the Source Filter Box, it does NOT apply to the Source Box. Furthermore, anything selected using the Source Box is treated as a top-level item (TLI) and all of their children are treated as sub-items(SLIs). And sub-items are also shown unless otherwise filtered (by the Filter Box or Grid filters) .

I have always wondered how TLIs worked in IQ. In Ecco they were actually special items, so I didn't see how the idea applied in IQ . It turns out (I think) that an item is made a TLI for a specific Grid when it matches the Source Box criteria.

A quick example based on my samples above, note the toolbar above that shows all the relevant grid settings.

Just TestGrid in the source box, we get the TLIs that match TestGrid and all of their children/subitems/SLIs

Now we turn on "Filter criteria applies to sub-items", which changes nothing because we don't have an active FilterBox

Now we turn on the Filter Box with TestGrid in it with filter subitems turned on. It filters out all the items, including submitems that don't match.

And for completeness let's turn off the filter subitems. We get the same result as the first two since its only applying to TLIs and they have already been filtered to include TestGrid by the Source Box.

Hi Armando, in 1. Grid Display Modes you said

[quote=Armando]

Didn't have the time to read the whole thing but the tip at the end doesn't seem accurate. "Full Hierarchy" isn't the same as "show all sub-items", as "show all sub-items" will litteraly show everything, whether the items meet the filters or not. Full hierarchy will notdisplay items that don't meet the filters.

[/quote]

I don't think the comment about "show all sub-items" is correct is it? From what I can tell "show all sub-items" is just an expand/collapse command. It doesn't have anything to do with the flat -> hierarchy stuff. Or maybe that was your point (I can't see the original post).

That said, I'm still not sure what full hierarchy does.

[quote=reesd]

Hi Armando, in 1. Grid Display Modes you said

[quote=Armando]

[/quote]

That said, I'm still not sure what full hierarchy does.

[/quote]

"show all sub-items" isn't really an expand/collapse command. First of all, it doesn't collapse... And It really does what it states : it shows all sub-items of a selected parent, whether these items meet the source, filter, etc. or not. Note that this function doesn't work when column filters are on... which is why I don't use column filters...

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Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 3

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU: Intel Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

[quote=Armando]

[/quote]

Thanks, I didn't realize that.

As long as I am discovering, what does Full Hierarchy actually do then :)?

[quote=reesd]

As long as I am discovering, what does Full Hierarchy actually do then :)?

[/quote]

Full Hierarchy shows all sub items, even those not meeting the source, as long as they meet the other filters' criteria (if/when the filter apply to sub items, of course). When there are no filters, I guess that Full hierarchy will show exactly the same sub-items as the "Show all sub-items" (which can only be use for selected items at given time -- it is not a setting that sticks)

"Normal" hierarchy shows only sub items meeting the source. Unfortunately (IMO -- I guess it depends on the view point) there's a twist in this mode as it works as advertised only when some sub-items meet the source. It there are no sub-items meeting the source, they will be shown nevertheless... To be honest, I still don't understand why this is it.

I strictly use the Full hierarchy mode. On rare occasion, I'll use normal hierarchy to see only those items meeting the source... But I'll usually just use filters for that. So...

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Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 3

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU: Intel Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Even apart from it's quirky behaviour, I find the names dont really reflect the behaviour (but maybe the behaviour is too complex to summarise in a name...)

[quote=Armando]

[quote=reesd]

As long as I am discovering, what does Full Hierarchy actually do then :)?

[/quote]

I strictly use the Full hierarchy mode. On rare occasion, I'll use normal hierarchy to see only those items meeting the source... But I'll usually just use filters for that. So...

[/quote]

If that is what it does, then I agree with Tom it needs to be renamed. I never would have guessed that, and it explains some things that have confused me for months (years?).

Based on your explanation I'm not sure I full understand normal hierarchy now either. Here is what I think is happening, with an image link for each....

A) hierarchy off, full hierarchy off, context parents off, filter subitems off

items selected by source are shown

their full children (regardless of children matching source) are shown underneath them

items may be shown more than once

http://screencast.com/t/mR5Im1em

B) hierarchy ON, full hierarchy off, context parents off, filter subitems off

items selected by source are shown

if items have a direct parent they are shown under that parent

children not matching the source are NOT shown

http://screencast.com/t/tlSPCRWf

C) hierarchy ON, full hierarchy ON, context parents off, filter subitems off

items selected by source are shown

if items have a direct parent they are shown under that parent

also, children not matching the source are shown

http://screencast.com/t/b4toAkWbhcPf

So hierarchy and full hierarchy are doing two things, collapsing items into the hierarchy and controlling if children are shown. Personally I think that's wrong and they should be decoupled to something like the following:

Source

Selects the items that these other rules apply to.

I will call these Source Items (I'm not using TLI because it implies things that don't seem to fully apply in IQ)

Include Children

Show all (including non-Source Items) the children of the Source Item's under it.

Include Parent(s)

Show all (including non-Source Items) the parents of the Source Items above it.

Apply Hierarchy

Items are shown only once - moved under the appropriate parent item if its also in the grid

Source Bar Filters

Further filter the Source Items. So this reduced set is now the Source Items.

Apply Filter To Non-Source Items

Applies the Source Bar Filters (filters other than Source) to non-Source Items - items that have been included because they are children (due to Include Children).

Yes, something should probably be modified within the filtering system/UI as it is confusing.

Some of your suggestions look good, others would be problematic IMO... Don't have the time to elaborate at the moment though... This whole subject has been discussed many times already, and maybe Pierre has already decided on what he wants to do in the future.

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Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 3

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU: Intel Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz

Maybe a few of us could draft a suggested plan then give to Pierre to review and change as he sees fit? Just to save him time and get more thoughts together...

One more issue as long as I am playing with hierarchies.

In this example why are we seeing testA11 as a TLI? You could guess its matched by the Source Box , but testB2 is matched also.

Now let's add testA1 to TestGrid and see what happens...

Ah ha, it seems that in our first example because testA11 parent's testA1 was not in the Source Box it treated testA11 as an orphaned TLI. I think this isn't the correct behavior, especially in this case since the grid "knows" that testA11's lineage leads to testA1 which is also a TLI. Perhaps this is also a consequence of not having "Context Parents" only shows the first parent.?

I think we have a few of these orphan cases, and I don't think we should. I think the rule for hierarchy should be simple . If an item's parent is shown in the grid, it should be shown once under that parent. This should apply if the subitem is a TLI whose parent is TLI or if the subitem is a TLI whose parent is a SLI.

As an aside, I'll add all of this work by me is an attempt to just get a list of items shown in their parent hierarchy. I think if we just had "Context Parents" only shows the first parent. I would have literally saved man weeks of my own time by now. But without it I keep trying to recreate it somehow every couple of weeks and then running into all this hierarchy weirdness. It's hard for me to see not showing the full parent lineage isn't causing problems for lots of other people also. Perhaps folks are using this more as a flat to do tool rather than an outliner (hence the reason they want a calendar when there are tons of calendars tools that already exist). Ok, I will stop ranting. The reality is I haven't found anything else with outline filtering and custom columns or I would have switched away a long time ago - I still look every month tho :).

This is a bug that's been there for ever. It's due to the way items are filtered. Pierre had/has plans to change the way items are filtered, but I don't know when.

See Mantis :

0213

Hierarchy is not restored properly when the Parent and Grand-children meet the source/filter, but not the Children

Bug

0214

Hierarchy problem : sub-item appears both as a sub-item and at top level when its main parent is not displayed in current grid

Bug

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Windows XP Home Edition, Service pack 3

Dell Vostro 1500, Ram:3gb, CPU: Intel Core2Duo T7500 2.2ghz