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[quote=Pierre_Admin]

I don't have too much control on this. It is a grid behaviour.

Sorry

[/quote]

no worries Pierre - I thought that might be the case (as all fields the same)

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This doesnt seem to be to do with a setting but I cant figure out why it changes (yet). Hasnt changed yet in the one session - i.e. always a restart involved (so far)

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Hi Tom,

Actually, the # column works like other columns : if you click on what would be the editable area -- where the numbers appear -- it always work the same. If you click outside the editable area -- beside the numbers -- you 'll be in select mode.

You know your on top of an "editable area" (in this case nothing is editable, but cursor behaviour is the same) when the mouse cursor changes.

P.S. : BTW, I had a look at the copy paste page etc. Thanks a lot. I wonder if there's a way of presenting in a simpler way. The page really gives the impression that it's super complicated when it really isn't IMO. I'll see if I have the time to look at that later tomorrow.

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[quote=Armando]

Actually, the # column works like other columns : if you click on what would be the editable area -- where the numbers appear -- it always work the same. If you click outside the editable area -- beside the numbers -- you 'll be in select mode.

You know your on top of an "editable area" (in this case nothing is editable, but cursor behaviour is the same) when the mouse cursor changes.

[/quote]

Thanks Armando ( but read on ! )

-

(1) is how it's supposed to work (I left out the clicking in non-text/number area as not relevant to the problem)

(2) has happened to me twice in two different IQ installs in the last two days - so there's definitely something funny going on, here at any rate (with # 25a)

I'll make it more specific:

1) Sometimes if I click in a number in the # column and drag, the item is selected and moves.

2) Sometimes if I click in a number in the # column and drag, I get a selection box

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Thanks for the details. However I can't reproduce it in 2 different DB and 2 different installs. I wonder what it could be.

(The problem is that I almost never use that column to Drag/Drop, so I'll probably never notice it in my everyday usage)

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[quote=Armando]

Thanks for the details. However I can't reproduce it in 2 different DB and 2 different installs. I wonder what it could be.

(The problem is that I almost never use that column to Drag/Drop, so I'll probably never notice it in my everyday usage)

[/quote]

they both my problems too lol

~ I cannot reproduce it either (on demand anyway) - I thought it might have to do with the column width but no luck yet. I'll try it again over the next while.

~ I dont work that way normally either (I was only checking it out for the manual page)

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[quote=Armando]
P.S. : BTW, I had a look at the copy paste page etc. Thanks a lot. I wonder if there's a way of presenting in a simpler way. The page really gives the impression that it's super complicated when it really isn't IMO. I'll see if I have the time to look at that later tomorrow.
[/quote]

I agree - but the problem is that everything I wrote there is the case so I presume it will have to go in somewhere -
initially my idea was that the default behaviour would be the simple version but it isn't - not the way I've described it anyways

How about you write a summary at the top of that section [or do a complete rewrite] but leave the other stuff for the moment ?

The way it was before was a lot simpler but left out the things that people would have problems with - the things they'd go look in the manual for...

Here's the previous version:

d) Drag and Drop: move item or show it in a new location

to move an item by drag and drop: select it either by clicking in the first (#) column or click in the text of the item field * and drag it to it's new location.

to show an item in a new location while keeping it in the current location (i.e. like the second option in Pasting above) press the Control key while dragging the item to it's new location - it will now show in both locations. An item can be shown/displayed in as many locations as you want.

* Tools >>Options >>General >>Grid now has the option to expand an item with children on single-click (or double-click).

If you select "on double-click", drag-drop is initiated by clicking and dragging the bullet

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Maybe should we make the difference clear between "basics" and details.

We could also use 2 tables : 1) mouse actions and their effects on items, 2) keyboard "shortcuts" usage to move items (a bit like the explorer/IQ comparison table ?)

In any case, it should be easy to see how to do what.

There could be a "Note" column, where details concerning specific situations would be added.

What do you think ? Maybe I'm just a table guy...

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Well, I really liked the Explorer/IQ table - originally I was thinking of copying it over but didnt - cant remember why now...

Mightn't be a bad idea to use it as a starting point (?) cause it can only help to compare things to something people know (especially as it really is quite similar)

Was planning on doing moving via keyboard shortcuts next - is that not covered yet in the manual ?

How about the "Variations depending on options/settings etc." - would they fit in at the end of the table? Na, too complex I think - maybe better just shown after in a different table or even as currently.

(I really can see the weaknesses of my current one, but as said above I think all that info has to be included somehow, somewhere...)

Go for it if you want/have time - if not I can do something later or tomorrow based on your IQ/Exp table (unchanged from current version below - but I did edit it a bit after you posted it)

Mouse Operations : comparisons with Windows Explorer

ACTIONS	Mouse operations	Explorer vs InfoQube summary	Detailed explanations
Move items	Click + drag & drop	Same	To move items you must click in an editable area of any selected item and drag - any other selected items will move with the item you drag. You can also move items in IQ by clicking on a number in the # column or by clicking on an item bullet and dragging. This is similar to MS Word in "Outline mode"
Select multiple items	Click + drag	Same	For "multiple select" using click & drag in Explorer or in IQ, just click anywhere in a non editable areas (between text-number-date fields, etc.) and drag the mouse to make a selection box. Note that in Explorer --Windows XP-- that means that you can click anywhere except the filename column since only the file name column is editable.
[as above]	Shift + Click	Same	To multiple select contiguous items using shift + click in explorer or in IQ, just click anywhere in an editable area (on text/number/date), hold shift, and click elsewhere. All intervening items will be selected.
Select multiple non-contiguous items	Ctrl + Click	Similar	In IQ: keeping the Control key pressed - click on the number in the # column of each item you want to select. In Explorer you have to click on the file name column, keeping Control key pressed.
IQ : Show items in different contexts (create multiple parent links, etc.) Explorer : Copy items	Ctrl + Click + Drag & Drop	Different	CTRL + click + drag & drop is used to show items in a different context. This is not the same as copying. The item(s) shown in different grids/contexts is still the same item. (Full copying - to produce a replica item but with a different ID number - is managed with the item context menu or the usual keyboard shortcuts.)
Create shortcuts (hyperlinks)	Alt + Click + Drag & Drop	In IQ:- Not yet implemented using mouse actions	IQ does do this, but (currently) only using the item context menu, not with mouse actions.

Forum painfully slow today...

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How about: IF including the Explorer comparison (which idea I find good) - how about seperating the Explorer and IQ descriptions - I find them a bit mixed up currently.

Might mean repeating info a little - had a quick go at the first example - just to throw the idea out there - definitely needs polishing...

There doesnt seem to be anyway to resize individual columns which is a bit of a PITA

Mouse Operations : comparisons with Windows Explorer

ACTIONS	Mouse operations	Explorer vs InfoQube summary	Explorer	IQ
Move items	Click + drag & drop	Same	To move items you must click in an editable area of any selected item and drag - any other selected items will move with the item you drag. Note that in Explorer (Windows XP) that means clicking on the filename column since only the file name column is editable.	To move items you must click in an editable area of any selected item and drag - any other selected items will move with the item you drag. You can also move items in IQ by clicking on a number in the # column or by clicking on an item bullet and dragging. This is similar to MS Word in "Outline mode"
Select multiple items	Click + drag	Same	For "multiple select" using click & drag in Explorer or in IQ, just click anywhere in a non editable areas (between text-number-date fields, etc.) and drag the mouse to make a selection box. Note that in Explorer --Windows XP-- that means that you can click anywhere except the filename column since only the file name column is editable.
[as above]	Shift + Click	Same	To multiple select contiguous items using shift + click in explorer or in IQ, just click anywhere in an editable area (on text/number/date), hold shift, and click elsewhere. All intervening items will be selected.
Select multiple non-contiguous items	Ctrl + Click	Similar	In IQ: keeping the Control key pressed - click on the number in the # column of each item you want to select. In Explorer you have to click on the file name column, keeping Control key pressed.
IQ : Show items in different contexts (create multiple parent links, etc.) Explorer : Copy items	Ctrl + Click + Drag & Drop	Different	CTRL + click + drag & drop is used to show items in a different context. This is not the same as copying. The item(s) shown in different grids/contexts is still the same item. (Full copying - to produce a replica item but with a different ID number - is managed with the item context menu or the usual keyboard shortcuts.)
Create shortcuts (hyperlinks)	Alt + Click + Drag & Drop	In IQ:- Not yet implemented using mouse actions	IQ does do this, but (currently) only using the item context menu, not with mouse actions.

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Hi Tom, I posted a reply yesterday... But it didn't make it to the server it seems :(.

I'll try later tonight.

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[quote=Armando]

Hi Tom, I posted a reply yesterday... But it didn't make it to the server it seems :(.

I'll try later tonight.

[/quote]

Well I'm learning about simplifying things -

I simplified the current page but more importantly I have hopefully simplified the table ( -- link to nonexistent node ID 1979 -- ) that I'd like to add to the main page

My idea is to focus firstly on the # column - it's much easier if a new user learns how to do select and drag & drop all using the one column. Other methods are shown in the next column and can be learned at their leisure.

In the 'intro' I say

"Reading as far as the "Using the # Column" in the table will give you the most straight-forward methods for drag & drop etc."

The Explorer / IQ comparison is only glossed over to keep it simple. Because of the focus on the # column, I've used 'Similar' instead of 'Same'

Let me know what you think of the idea and the implementation

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Tom,

It's a very minor point I know but probably not a good idea to have one of the column headings in your table be the "#" symbol. Perhaps just leave it blank, then there is absolutely no confusion that you are talking about the Grid # column.

John

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[quote=jdonlan]

Tom,

It's a very minor point I know but probably not a good idea to have one of the column headings in your table be the "#" symbol. Perhaps just leave it blank, then there is absolutely no confusion that you are talking about the Grid # column.

John

[/quote]

thanks John. Good point.

I'll risk calling that column the "Default Method" and see if anyone objects.

It's not an ideal name nor technically correct but I couldnt think of a better name -

I want to convey that this column gives you everything you neeed - the rest is icing.

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Tom,

In fact I was talking about the leftmost column

but you are right about the other one as well - and "Default Method" seems as good a title as any.

John

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Thanks for your work, Tom. It's greatly appreciated.

I see some potential problems with this presentation (not that it's bad or anything though) : IMO, it doesn't convey what the basic principles are, which is, IMVHO again, the most important aspect (once principles are known, the user is free)

For SIMPLE mouse actions, there are 2 simple principles to remember :

1- to drag & drop : first click on any editable area (mouse cursor changes to caret )... and drag

2- for simple or multiple contiguous cell selection, : click on any non editable area (mouse cursor changes to Arrow)... and drag if necessary (for multiple selection).

There is only 1 exception which is easy to understand.

1- For full item selection in multicolumn mode : one needs to click on the # column to select a full item (all cells at once). In full item mode, this isn't necessary.

Is that incorrect ?

Keyboard modifiers for more complex actions :

Note that the basic principles still apply. But... you can use modifiers like shift and ctrl to achieve different results.

There's only one exception in the whole series :

- Multiple non-contiguous selection (using ctrl-click) : due to a bug in IQ (this is not standard behaviour), one can only use # column. Clicking in others cells won't work.

I think that the table should only summarize mouse + keyboard actions.

I'm also not so sure that the bug for multiple non contiguous item selection should justify making the "#" column the default place for all mouse actions. IMO, it's a bit misleading as it doesn't put the accent on the 2 principles (and 1 or 2 exceptions) to learn. And these are basically the same as Explorer... So, no big deal.

I actually believe that confusion first arose from the impression that there are 100 unrelated ways to achieve the same things, instead of only a couple principles which can always be applied, and only 1 or 2 exceptions (depending on the chosen selection mode). " You need to use the # colum to drag & drop... No... Wait, you can also click on the item field... No, wait, you can also..." When, actually, it's just a matter of clicking on what the mouse qualifies as an "Editable area...".

My 2c (which can of course be disregarded -- I'm the techie geek who doesn't get "user friendliness"... ;) )

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Hi Armando

no problem - I probably should have waited for your response but just did a bit every now & again - it was mostly copy paste anyway

I like the conversational tone of your post and wonder:-

how about we have something like that first & then show a table with details [which (on rereading) is also what you were thinking...]

EDIT I think the variations are going to have to be explained in detail and I like the way they are now - e.g. [1] in the notes column in table and explained below - that way people know at a glance to which action there could be variations (minor point though really)

BTW I'm not tired of this yet but have absolutely no objections if you just want to jump in there and do something !!

I'm just a bit like a dog with a bone at times -

I keep chewing away at it :-)

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> Multiple non-contiguous selection (using ctrl-click) : due to a bug in IQ (this is not standard behaviour), one can only use # column

~~I didnt know this was a bug - are you sure - that would mean that single item selection is a bug too.~~

~~How else could it work - if clicking in a cell selected an item you wouldn't be able to select a single cell (like full-line selection mode)~~

EDIT/ following my discovery (in the following post) that you can move an item when just a cell is selected - I understand i.e. No need to reply to this either.

But I would have to say my misunderstandings do underline that this might not be a simple as you think.

Oddly enough this (that you can move an item when just a cell is selected) actually makes moving a lot simpler - but it is unexpected behaviour (to me)

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Sorry for the barrage of posts:

I'm dealing with things as they come up:

You say:

There's only one exception in the whole series :

- Multiple non-contiguous selection (using ctrl-click) : due to a bug in IQ (this is not standard behaviour), one can only use # column. Clicking in others cells won't work.

[SEE EDIT BELOW] Unfortunately using Shift + click is also an exception - again I have to click first in the # column

if I shift + click in a cell and again in another - all intervening cells get selected.

EDIT: I'm learning,

if just the item cells are selected, I can still drag and drop the items. So that's okay - no need to respond !

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Everyone (!) please look at -- link to nonexistent node ID 1979 --

a trial run at a table -

Idea is to have one column for the # column as that 's the easiest way to learn it all

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Cool. Let's see if that helps ! :)

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had missed these posts. That sounds good Pierre

That might make it simpler to explain things using the # column (not arguing for that Armando, just pointing it out - I'd prefer if people got the concept(s) mayself

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Simpler ? probably.

I really wonder though, since I'm not a new user... ;)

Tom seems to think that this could be an option -- from the orientation he took with the table.

(As far as I'm concerned, I really don't mind especially if it's a revertible option. I have zero problem with Drag and Drop.)

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Well, it was one idea to try and make things simpler to explain - as I say above, I'd also prefer if people got the concepts.

But if you see the glut of (my) posts & edits above you'll see I'm still learning how it currently works.

I have no problems with drag and drop either - but I'm having major problems explaining it lol

Originally my idea was as in the first post - if "Click and drag from anywhere in the # column will move an item" worked - it would be a doddle to explain all mouse moves etc. (just using that column).

But as it is you have to explain the editable / non-editable clciking - so if we can manage that, we may as well explain the whole lot (?)

Have a look at the current version of -- link to nonexistent node ID 1979 -- and see if that's better - well it's definitely a lot better - but if it's good enough

!!! dont be shy to edit it - I didnt mean to take this over !!!

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I just had a quick look at it (currently need to finish an editing job for tomorrow morning...), and it looks pretty good. Thanks a lot Tom !

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Pierre

what would be helpful is if the bug with non-contiguous selection of cells were fixed -

I presume that's been reported to the grid people?

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EDIT/ moved Armando's text & the table to the main manual page Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop
3 queries

(1) Is this below correct ?

(1a) if so, would it be helpful in the manual page? (not sure where exactly in that section)

_________________

Note: Full item selection is only necessary/useful if you want to delete the item.

With only one cell in an item selected, you can

move the item (with mouse or with keyboard shortcuts)
edit the items properties in the Properties pane
edit the HTML pane

_______________

(I guess the last two there are self-evident)

(2) Is it helpful to add Select Cell(s) to the table ?

see main page Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop - I've added "Select cell" to the table

(3) I considered making the "two simple principles" into Three - becuase selecting an item using the # column is not really an exception - it's just the way it's done.

( if there's no objections I'll change it )

_________________________________________________________________

EDIT - below is relevant section with changes 1 & 3 implemented (and highlighted)

For simple mouse actions, there are three principles to remember :

1) to drag & drop : click on any editable area and drag. In editable areas the mouse pointer changes to caret (text-cursor)

2) for simple or multiple contiguous (adjacent) cell selection: click on any non editable area (mouse cursor changes to Arrow)... and drag if necessary (for multiple selection)

3) Selecting a full item (all cells at once) can only be done by clicking on the # column

Note that Full item Selection is only necessary/useful if you want to delete the item.

With only one cell in an item selected, you can move the item (with mouse or with keyboard shortcuts)

Keyboard modifiers for more complex actions :

Note that the basic principles still apply. But you can use modifiers like Shift and Control to achieve different results.

Selecting non-contiguous items using Crtl+Click can only be done using the # column. (Selecting non-contiguous field cells is not currently possible)

Drag & drop and selection of items is comparable to how these operations work in Windows Explorer

________________________

TABLE IS HERE

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Bit of a double posting, sorry - this same as in last part above

Here is relevant section with changes 1 & 3 (suggested above) implemented (and highlighted)

For simple mouse actions, there are three principles to remember :

1) to drag & drop : click on any editable area and drag. In editable areas the mouse pointer changes to caret (text-cursor)

2) for simple or multiple contiguous (adjacent) cell selection: click on any non editable area (mouse cursor changes to Arrow)... and drag if necessary (for multiple selection)

3) Selecting a full item (all cells at once) can only be done by clicking on the # column

Note that Full item Selection is only necessary/useful if you want to delete the item.

With only one cell in an item selected, you can move the item (with mouse or with keyboard shortcuts)

Keyboard modifiers for more complex actions :

Note that the basic principles still apply. But you can use modifiers like Shift and Control to achieve different results.

Selecting non-contiguous items using Crtl+Click can only be done using the # column. (Selecting non-contiguous field cells is not currently possible)

Drag & drop and selection of items is comparable to how these operations work in Windows Explorer

________________________

TABLE IS HERE

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Re Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop

I made these changes as no-one objected

Only thing I'm not fully sure of is this:

> Note that Full item Selection is only necessary/useful if you want to delete the item.

Shout if it's incorrect !

____________________________________________________________________

Also plan to add some info about moving items using keyboard - anyone know off-hand if that's documented in the manual already?

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Thanks Tom.

I actually almost never select full items, even to delete... I just press <CTRL> + E, instead of "delete"

> Also plan to add some info about moving items using keyboard - anyone know off-hand if that's documented in the manual already?

It's been documented there Grid/Items keyboard shortcuts (at least partially).

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