InfoQube IM - Community

Submitted by WayneK on 2015/12/28 23:49

I know "why are my items disappearing" has been a common question but now I have one of my own. I thought I understood the rules for this, but maybe not.

I did a grid refresh and several subitems disappeared.

1) I opened a scratch grid showing all items by creation date. The subitems are there, underneath the proper TLI,

2) Full hierarchy and context parents are on (I tried turning each on and off - didn't make a difference).

3) I tried Item>show all subitems.

4) No filters are on

I thought all subitems should show underneath their parents unless there's a filter in effect that excludes them.

Wayne

Comments

"Show all subitems" (item context menu, while focussing on the parent) should show all subs regardless of any filters.

There used to be a very specific bug affecting subs (even when "show all subitems" is used) that happens in a very specific context, but a refresh fixes it. Does a refresh fix the problem?

Otherwise, could you post a screenshot showing all your applied filters/alphanumeric, hierarchy, etc.?

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

Here's a view in the scratch grid where all the subitems are correctly shown.

Here's the view in the primary grid with missing subitem:

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

It seems to me (from the blue color of the "Articles" item) that the problem is that you're using context parents in the second example (with the missing subitem) : if "Crimes of the Century. Ch.2" main parent isn't "Articles", it won't be displayed under "Articles". It will be displayed under another context parent (the actual "Crimes of the Century. Ch.2" main parent -- see properties pane to see the "Crimes of the Century. Ch.2" main parent ; you can change that main parent by right clicking on a parent and selecting "set as main parent").

But I could be wrong about that context parent hypothesis.

That said, right clicking on "articles" and selecting "show all subitems" should show "Crimes of the century. Ch.2", regardless of anything else, filters, context parent etc.

[Edited : mistake in my first attempt]

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

"Crimes of the Century" has only one parent: Articles.

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

Hi Wayne,

In your screenshots, always show the top of the IQ window, so we can see the grid source, and if filters are applied

Clearly though, "Article" is a context parent, so sub-items displayed are only those that match the grid source, not all sub-items.

A couple of options.

On the parent, Item > Show all sub-items
Hoist the parent item
Focus on the parent and look at children in the Properties pane
Focus on any subs and look at siblings in the Properties pane
Ensure all subs meet the grid source (typically a yes/no field with the same name as the grid)

HTH !

Pierre_Admin

1) As noted in my original post, I did try Item>Show all sub-items. What I did not realize is that this only works for one level of sub-items. It will not show subitems of subitems. You have to go to each individual subitem and repeat the command, then do the same for each successive subitem. I find that overly complicated and confusing. "Show subitems" should show ALL levels of subitems.

Anyway, once I applied this to the parent of the missing item, it appeared.

2) Hoisting made it appear. Not sure why that would work.

3) Yes, it correctly showed the subitem there.

4) Yes, it showed.

5) This was the root of the confusion. The subitem was created within the grid and therefore should have automatically received the corresponding field assignment. I just tested it again and verified that this is the case. I don't know why this particular item didn't get it.

My second confusion was assuming that all subitems are displayed under TLI's, especially after checking "show all subitems."

I'm sure there's some benefit to having things set up this way but it makes things complicated, confusing, and hard to keep track of. I've spent a lot of time studying this program and I can still barely grasp all the permutations of when things appear and disappear.

Wayne

>2) Hoisting made it appear. Not sure why that would work.

Keep in mind that the parent is shown in blue, meaning it is a context parent. It is shown for your convenience and would be hidden should you uncheck Grid > Context Parents.

So the grid shows all items that meet the source

If you want to make sure that all sub-items of a parent are shown, ensure that the parent meets the grid source (and full hierarchy is ON)

Hoisting an item moves the grid content away from the grid source to focus on the hoisting item, by definition. So hoisting the parent will show all sub-items.

See 1. Grid Display Modes

OK, I'm going to write all this up for future reference and will do more experimenting to make sure I understand it.

Still don't understand why some items created in the grid did not receive automatic assignment to the source field.

Also don't understand why "show all subitems" failed to show it, but i'll experiment with that, too.

Wayne

The concept is based on Ecco Pro, and in Ecco Pro, only TLI get the source field.

In grid properties > Data, you can change this in 2 ways:

Auto-assign field list for all items added in this grid
Keep source field values when demoting TLI

[quote=WayneK]Here's the view in the primary grid with missing subitem:

[/quote]

I'm confused by this screenshot -- is 'Articles' a sub-item of 'Leopold and Leob' ?

How come it's shown in blue then?

Is it something to do with Hierarchy again?

Tom,

I missed your question. I'm still struggling with this myself. Every time I think I understand, I see something that doesn't fit my understanding.

The Articles item is shown in blue because:

1) It hasn't been assigned to the grid source field. Therefore it shouldn't show in this grid.

2) But it does show because its subitems ARE assigned to the grid source. Therefore its being shown only as a context parent (hence the blue).

I thought I got confirmation from Pierre that subitems will not appear unless they're assigned to the grid source field. But I'm looking at a grid right now where the subitems are unassigned yet still appear in the grid. Still trying to figure it out.

Wayne

[quote=WayneK]

1) It hasn't been assigned to the grid source field. Therefore it shouldn't show in this grid.

2) But it does show because its subitems ARE assigned to the grid source. Therefore its being shown only as a context parent (hence the blue).

3) I thought I got confirmation from Pierre that subitems will not appear unless they're assigned to the grid source field. But I'm looking at a grid right now where the subitems are unassigned yet still appear in the grid. Still trying to figure it out.

[/quote]

Correct
Excellent !
Perhaps their parent has a value for the grid source field ?

Yes, their parent has a value for the grid source field. But I thought you said the subitems won't show unless they themselves also are assigned to the source field (see your comment on #1).

Update: I did some testing.

Grid #1 = Subitems disappear if the grid source field is unchecked.

Grid #2 = Subitems remain whether the grid source field is checked or not.

So the behavior is not the same and it appears not to be true that subitems will disappear if they're not assigned to the grid source field. I'm assuming there's some grid setting that's controlling this.

Wayne

True, but the parent item has a expand + button to show it has sub-items, and so if you expand, you see all sub-items, naturally

If one sub-item has a value for the grid source, then expanding the parent will show only that item. To see all items, you do Show All Sub-items (or Ctrl+Click starting v64)

This above discussion applies to the case where hierarchy is set BUT not Full hierarchy. In Full hierarchy, all sub-items are shown, whether they have the source field or not.

All displays (flat, hierarchy, full hierarchy, context parents, context parent level setting) have their usage, rest assured, but their understanding and usage is the key to understanding IQ

OK, I'm getting there. It's been stated several times that subitems will not show if they're not assigned to the source field. That statement needs to be qualified. They do show if the grid is set to full hierarchy. That was the problem in the first place.

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

Thanks Wayne,
what confuses me is this (note I dont normally use context parents so may be missing something basic, but I am hoping this will help understanding of what's happening)

From you screenshot I think the following true -- can you confirm?

'Articles' is a sub-item of 'Leopold and Leob'
'Leopold and Leob' is a TLI in the grid
full hierarchy is on

If the above is true I dont understand why Articles' is shown in blue as opposed to normally...

I think that full hierarchy is off in Wayne's initial post

Wayne ?

p.s. Questions like this is the reason why I'd like users to show the top portion of the IQ window when providing screenshots, so it is less a guessing game...

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

I think that full hierarchy is off in Wayne's initial post

Wayne ?

[/quote]

I suspect the same -- this a recurring problem Pierre --

I think you've got to rename the 'basic' hierarchy *and* preferably hide it somewhere not so accessible ;-)

OK for rename but NO to hide it. regular hierarchy is soooo useful !

That said, I now think he's got full hierarchy on, but perhaps something need fixing

Pierre, I was unable to edit my posts here ('Access denied' when I click post) [seems to be working now]

@ Wayne, you say 'Full Hierarchy' in first post -- just in case:

note that 'Full Hierarchy' is a sub-item of 'Hierarchy' in the menu

Try it now, I changed your permissions

Full hierarchy was off. That was my problem. This thread could have been a lot shorter but I don't regret the path it's taken because there's a lot of good info here.

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

Regular hierarchy is really like flat view (showing only items that meet the source) with items then re-arranged into a hierarchy as much as possible

Full hierarchy starts with the list of items that meet the source but then finds all TLIs as much as possible and the expands to show items

[quote=WayneK]Every time I think I understand, I see something that doesn't fit my understanding.

[/quote]

Welcome to InfoQube

. I say that not in a negative way of course, the learning curve is commensurate to the power features. I know I've barely scratched the surface.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident it's going to worth it in the end. I need the power to accomplish what I want with my research project. Some of this stuff I probably won't use but I need to understand what's there so I can make hopefully intelligent choices about what I do want to use.

Wayne

Fixed in v0.9.26PreRel64:

Fixed: Grid: When Full Hierarchy was ON, some items were incorrectly shown in blue (context parent) and some sub-items were not shown

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

Fixed in v0.9.26PreRel64:

Fixed: Grid: When Full Hierarchy was ON, some items were incorrectly shown in blue (context parent) and some sub-items were not shown

[/quote]

It seems to me that the following problem should also be looked at:

[quote]

This hierarchical mode (not full) is very confusing; I've described why many years ago. To summarize : if only one sub meets the source, all other subs disappear from the display, but if none of them meets the source, all of them show up.

[/quote]

I've described the normal (not full) hierarchy mode somewhat weird behavior a few times (it's probably in Mantis).

If the "normal" mode is to be kept, shouldn't its behavior be more predictable?

Examples:
(in both examples, screenshots, hierarchy is ON but not full.)

1- all subs DON'T meet the source. But they still appear (this is not what is expected, IMO, according to the definition of "normal hierarchy" -- I don't know about others, but I'd expect to see no subs, since none meet the source):

2- Only 1 sub meets the source. All others disappear, and only the sub meeting the source appears (what is expected, according to the definition of "normal hierarchy")

I think it adds to the confusion/complexity and still don't understand why it should be like that.

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

Carefully read 1. Grid Display Modes

I think that it is clear what the usage of the different display modes is.

That said, I think it may be better to have a single button with 3 sub-menus

Flat list of items: Items that have sub-items still have a + expand button to show they have sub-items, but the list always opens flat
Tree list of items: Same list as Flat list of items, but shown in a tree whenever possible
Outline view: In outline view, only TLIs are kept and expanded

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

Carefully read 1. Grid Display Modes

I think that it is clear what the usage of the different display modes is.

That said, I think it may be better to have a single button with 3 sub-menus

Flat list of items: Items that have sub-items still have a + expand button to show they have sub-items, but the list always opens flat
Tree list of items: Same list as Flat list of items, but shown in a tree whenever possible
Outline view: In outline view, only TLIs are kept and expanded

[/quote]

Pierre, I think you know that I know how hierarchies work. That said, what part is talking about what I'm mentioning?

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

#2, specifically:

[quote]

I think it adds to the confusion/complexity and still don't understand why it should be like that.

[/quote]

What do you think of the proposed changes ? Would it not be clearer ?

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

#2, specifically:

[quote]

I think it adds to the confusion/complexity and still don't understand why it should be like that.

[/quote]

What do you think of the proposed changes ? Would it not be clearer ?

[/quote]

1- Putting everything under one button would make it simpler since all modes are mutually exclusive (AFAIK).

2- But I'm not sure that the proposed terminology would make it simpler/clearer. IMO Tree view VS hierarchy isn't a simple/clear conceptual differentiation -- it would only be understood once the specific definition/conventions are learned/read, which (I think) would add opacity to the software.

3- I think it's only the hierarchical "normal" mode that should be clarified (and corrected as mentioned in my post with the screenshots showing specifically what I think is wrong with that mode).

Maybe something like

- Flat view (defaulting to 1 level, parents expandable if needed)

- Hierarchy (the full mode, eventually fixing the problem with 3rd level children meeting the source/filter being shown as TLI)

- "Source hierarchy" : showing only items meeting the source, all the way down. And it should be the secondary mode, not the default one.

4- "Source hierarchy" (my suggestion above) is probably not the most elegant name, but at least it says what it is : a hierarchical display of items meeting the source (and the filters). As long as the problem mentioned in my other post (with the screenshots) is fixed/addressed. (I still don't get this "bug")

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

OK, how about then ?:

Grid items (Flat)
Grid items (Tree)
Outline view

This conveys the fact that the first 2 are similar, and show a similar list of items. The 3rd is different...

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

OK, how about then ?:

Grid items (Flat)
Grid items (Tree)
Outline view

This conveys the fact that the first 2 are similar, and show a similar list of items. The 3rd is different...

[/quote]

I'm confused by that -- is this correct:

= Hierarchy off
= Basic Hierarchy
= Full Hierarchy

if so, I dont think it's at all clear to a basic or new user what's what there. To them (even to me) a grid item is anything that shows in the grid. 'Outline View' is good -- but should come first.

When above I said hide basic hierarchy -- I meant you want Full Hierarchy as default, and some indication that any other setting is more advanced.

I also think you need to spell it out explicitly,

how about:

Outlineview
Only Source Items > 2.1 Flat View
> 2.2 Tree View

"Only items meeting source" would be even better - but may be too long.

Full Hierarchy needs to be favoured, and default setting (think of the number of threads that have ended up caused by basic hierarchy confusion).

Another suggestion:

Normal
Source (flat)
Source (tree)

Emphasis is put on "Normal" view (Full hierarchy) and the other two point to source items

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

Another suggestion:

Normal
Source (flat)
Source (tree)

Emphasis is put on "Normal" view (Full hierarchy) and the other two point to source items

[/quote]

The problem is that the source normally determines TLIs. But in the "normal hierarchical mode" (current one), it also applies to subs.

What if the source -- like the filter button in the source bar -- could have an option to "apply to sub items"? I don't know if it adds a lot of simplicity, but at least it makes really clear what's happening.

Then, you can have only 2 view mode : hierarchical and flat (all items meeting source as TLI)

edit : I share Tom's point of view about being very explicit :

[quote=Tom]

I also think you need to spell it out explicitly,

how about:

Outlineview
Only Source Items > 2.1 Flat View
> 2.2 Tree View

"Only items meeting source" would be even better - but may be too long.

Full Hierarchy needs to be favoured, and default setting (think of the number of threads that have ended up caused by basic hierarchy confusion).

[/quote]

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

To be consistent with the rest of IQ, in normal hierarchy, if none of the item's sub-items meet the source (i.e. your first screenshot), than the item should be shown closed (that is, not expanded). The + expand button there to indicate that it has sub-items, but these are not part of the grid.

When a sub-item meets the source, the item will be expanded (your second screenshot). Remember that starting v64, Ctrl+Click does a Show all sub-items, so it is easy to see other sub-items if desired

(I'm not sure how to implement this however...

, but that should be the goal)

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

When a sub-item meets the source, the item will be expanded (your second screenshot). Remember that starting v64, Ctrl+Click does a Show all sub-items, so it is easy to see other sub-items if desired

(I'm not sure how to implement this however...

, but that should be the goal)

[/quote]

That isn't really my point.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to explain. In both cases, the parent is "expandable". But in one case, all items not meeting the source are gone, and in the other one, items not meeting the source are visible (without using "show all subitems", obviously). IMO, there are no logical reason for that behaviour since the settings (normal hierarchy, same source) are exactly the same.

What would be logical : in normal hierarchy mode, in no case, should subitems appear (unless the special option to "show all subitems" is used), even when the parent is expended. That would be exactly in line with other behaviors; e.g. when a filter is active and prevents subs to be shown, the "+" sign appears before the parent, but nothing is shown when it's "expanded". The user then gets that there's something there, but some filter/setting/source is preventing it to be shown.

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

I've just spent two hours working through the help file explanations while trying them out in a test file. I'm more confused than ever because the behavior I'm seeing doesn't match what I thought I'd learned in this thread.

For example, all subitems show in the grid regardless of any settings for hierarchy. I thought I understood that in regular hierarchy the only items that will display are the ones that meet meet the grid source field. In my test file, they show whether they're assigned to the grid source field or not.

I find the menu and tool icons for hierarchy confusing. How do you get to Flat View? I assume you have to turn off hierarchy but I haven't been able to figure that out.

Grid>Hierarchy command seems to ONLY switch between regular hierarchy and full hierarchy. Or is it switching between no hierarchy, regular hierarchy, and full hierarchy? The display for this item really needs to be fixed to make more clear what's going on.

Same thing for the tool icon. It appears to only switch between full hierarchy (orange) and regular hierarchy (gray). How do I get to no hierarchy? I went through all the grid tools and could not find anything.

If display settings are the heart of InfoQube then an effort needs to be made to clarify the help file for this topic. It starts out with a bunch of examples with no explanation of how the settings work. There is no way any average user is going to wade through all this stuff. I'm determined to figure it out but it is not easy at all.

Wayne

if Hierarchy is unselected in the menu (or toolbar: colour changes) => that is Flat view

Flat view shows items that meet the source, (as would be expected, all at the same level),

Then you have basic hierarchy = Flat view with hierarchy added. I find this confusing so normally avoid it like the plague.

This is the one causing confusion here.

Then Full Hierarchy (sub-item of Hierarchy in the menu) is the normal Outline view.

If you start with Full Hierarchy in a grid with default settings, only TLIs will have the source-field ticked (presuming Y/N field). All subitems will be displayed.

Thanks. The way the tool icons work is confusing but I think I'm getting it. I can't get my tests to match what I think I was told on this thread: that the reason my subitems weren't show is that I had full hierarchy turned off. In my tests, the subitems show no matter what hierarchy is set to.

I see there's an old thread that raised similar issues so I'm going to work through that.

That's enough for New Year's Eve. Time to go celebrate. Happy New Year's everyone.

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

[quote=WayneK]

[/quote]

that's what's being thrashed out above. Hopefully we'll (all) figure out something together!

V64 will come with a fresh take on this, and a few bug fixes which contributed to the confusion

Release on On January 2nd normally, now, time to celebrate. Happy New year everyone !

Here are some filter settings.

Wayne

By the way, I haven't done any filtering in this grid so there should be nothing turned on.

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

This is pretty worrisome. I noticed this only because I happened to be working on this item at the time. If I can't figure out what happened I'm left wondering how many other subitems are disappearing without me noticing.

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

[quote=WayneK]

Wayne

Win 7, 64 bit Cyberpower Model 1, C Series (2011) 16 GB RAM

27" Samsung S27A350H, 24" ASUS VW242H 1920x1080

[/quote]

Hi Wayne, no subitems disappear in my DB. Still working with V.59 though.

So, to summarize:

1- At this moment you can simultaneously see 2 grids, a scratch and the other one, one showing a parent with all its subitems, and in the other the same parent misses one sub. Is that correct?

2- "Show all subitems" doesn't work. Is that correct ?

Disclaimer: "Testing IQ with the most advanced/complicated IQBase in the world". I.e. slower than average.

Windows 8.1

CPU: Intel i5 2.6ghz

1) Correct

2) Correct

Edit: do you have some system for verifying that subitems haven't disappeared? That's what's concerning. If you have a large database, I don't know how you would know if something disappeared unless it was something that happened to stick in your mind.

Wayne

Item > Show All sub-items should show all sub-items. It works or not ?

I think this was this situation:

1) Level #1 item = assigned to grid source field

2) Level #2 item = not assigned to grid source field

3) Level #3 items = all assigned to grid source field except one (the one not showing)

Level #2 item was displaying as a context parent because it had subitems assigned to the grid source.

Level #3 items (except one) were displaying correctly because they had been assigned to the grid source (even though the parent wasn't)

The missing item wasn't displaying because it was not assigned to the grid source.

If I understand your explanation, this is the correct behavior. Subitems will not display if they haven't been assigned to the grid source field. I assumed that "show all subitems" meant it would show all subitems of the TLI's regardless of field assignments.

Wayne

[quote=WayneK]

The missing item wasn't displaying because it was not assigned to the grid source.
If I understand your explanation, this is the correct behavior. Subitems will not display if they haven't been assigned to the grid source field.
I assumed that "show all subitems" meant it would show all subitems of the TLI's regardless of field assignments.

[/quote]

Correct
Correct
Show all sub-items means "Show all immediate sub-items of the currently focused item"