InfoQube IM - Community

Submitted by jan_rifkinson on 2010/09/13 11:41

Same title of earlier post on this subject.

I'm bringing it up again because I still find it frustrating when I try different types of drag drop operations.

Sometimes I want to move

Sometimes I want to copy

Sometimes I want to work w multiple items

Today it took me 4 tries to drag a copy a single item to another location (child of another item in another grid)

Depending on the function, it appears that the cursor has to be in different places

and even if the user gets that far; i.e. figuring out or remembering what goes where

sometimes the function doesn't work.

I don't think it's a local issue with my machine, my mouse, my OS.

I just think it needs tweaking & I think the process has to simplified / unified if possible, i.e. always focus on item dot or item #

Comments

Hi Jan,

As I don't have any problems with drag & drop etc., it's hard for me to understand what could be made better.

Could you post a screencast ? I'll post one of my working D&D if you want.

I also think that you should link to the (At least) 2 other threads where these matters have been described, analyzed, etc. It's not fair for those who try to help to start right from the beginning again.

(e.g. : You don'T need to focus on item dot or #... I don't know where that comes from. click anywhere you want in any editable area while not in editing mode... Same as explorer or Directory opus etc. I've describled that before)

Click on text to drag an item *

Dropping it can still be difficult I find, I've gotten used to using the keyboard shortcuts to correct it's position - I reckon this will have to be refined at some stage.

Using Drag-drop: only move item or show-it-in-new-location-as-the-same-item are possible currently

* clicking on a link in an item will cause the last selected item to be moved. Workaround: select the item first. (Not sure if that added to Mantis(?)

You requested lately the option to drag-drop and create a new item Drag drop between grids using e.g. drag-drop+Alt key

from that thread, Armando's mantis issue:

1032

Keyboard modif. + Drag & Drop to copy items OR create new items-hyperlink

New feature

feature

new

2010-07-26 13:11

I'm sure there are circumstances where D&D is hard.

I'm convinced. BUT, more details about what works and what doesn't would be good.

Just to show you how it can be hard to know what to fix when the problem isn't obvious on other computers (note that I'm not using tweezers or anything. I'm actually going fast in my Drag & drops) here's a screencast of my own D & D experience (sorry, typos ahead, etc., but I didn't have the time to produce a Spielberg quality video):

Excellent Armando. Clearly your experience is not my experience.

Let's review a few more things.

How do you differentiate between moving & copying w drag / drop?

what setting do you have for editing, i.e. does <Enter> create new field while in edit mode or not?

I'm trying to think of what else could be different.

Moving is just : click on editable areas + drag & drop.

Creating multiple parents (probably what you call copying) : CTRL+ drag & drop.

1- Enter creates a new item and item enters editing mode. 2- Enter again leaves editing mode.

I kept fooling around with items for a few minutes after posting my screencast and I did not find one weirdness per se.

HOWEVER. I think the new autorefresh feature does act up a bit sometimes. There's something not working exactly right here. I dropped an item under a parent. Parent remained as it was. No sub. BUT, when i clicked on the item + "show all subitems" (OR refreshed F5) the moved item appeared. So it was there, only not visible without a manual refresh.

Armando,

So, if I understand correctly,

you can put your cursor anywhere on the item & complete functions under "A" w/o any issues

Where do you place your cursor when drag / drop multiple items?

Part of my experience is that creating multiple parents (what I call copy) does not always function correctly, i.e. it moves item instead

maybe this has to do w the refresh problem you mention; I'll dbl chk & I'll get around to making my own video

> So, if I understand correctly,

> you can put your cursor anywhere on the item & complete functions under "A"

[my emphasis]

[EDIT:with apologies - this first part of post may be unnecessary]

not quite "anywhere on the item":

To move an item (if not using the bullet or the first column) you must click in the text and drag" (clicking in blank part of a cell will allow you to make a selection by dragging)

> Where do you place your cursor when drag / drop multiple items?

To select multiple items: keeping Control key pressed, click in the # column for each item you want to select

To move them: (again, if not using the bullet or the first column) you must click in the text of any selected item and drag - all the selected items will move.

Again if you just want to show the items elsewhere (not move them), keep Control key pressed when dragging items with the mouse (release the mouse button first, then the control key.)

Hope that's clear.

I just noticed that you might not notice that the post below was for you Jan:

> if you get a chance you could check out the related manual page: 4.40.30 Item Copy & Paste

- It could help you understand - and if not, hopefully we could improve it ;-)

Jan -

that whole post above may be superflous as you were asking Armando specifically how he did it and not how it was done in general (sorry for misunderstanding)

Hi Tom. I sincerely thank you for your help.

Plse don't take this the wrong way. If you re-read what you wrote from a newbie's pov, it sounds so complicated because IT IS.

If you want to copy....

If you want to move

If you want to select group, then copy or move.

etc

whew!

I've attached a little video to demonstrate my experiences here. They are VERY different from Armando's.

This may be because I don't understand something OR something else.

The first time I move an item between grids it's only a mouse click & drag

Every OTHER attempt is with <CTRL>+click

except

when i go over to the numbers & that is just a click drag

Now I know from instructions that the # column is used for selecting multiple items but here, again,

I think this is just TOO MUCH TO REMEMBER

I think IQ should follow standard protocol

Select an item, then SHFT Select another item & everything in between is selected

<CTRL> Select item & user will be able to select non-contiguous items

<CLICK> anywhere in one of the items will drag & move all items selected to new destination

<CTRL><CLICK>anywhere in one of the items will drag & copy all items selected to new destination

Same for Single items

This is not the case as far as I can tell

I certainly is not MY EXPIERENCE

BTW, I know all caps usually indicates yelling. I'm not yelling. I'm using them for emphasis ONLY

Hey Jan,

no problem :-)

You have some very good points there IMO. Something has to be done to either make the current 'way' more accessible or changes could be made (but what exactly? - read on...)

~ Unfortunately your video doesnt work here - I'm not sure what programme can you use to watch SWF files off-line so I dont know if I'm doing something wrong or if it's corrupted in some way (but IE can't manage it)

Re Selection:

The first column is AFAIK the only default way to select an item. *

The thing with IQ (I think it's fair to say) is that editing is given priority over selecting/moving.

Maybe there could be an easier way that still doesnt affect editing methods (? have you any ideas there ?)

You say "I think IQ should follow standard protocol" - I think you are referring to selection? or is moving included there? - can you explain exactly what that is? (or if you have explained elsewhere, link)

Me, I think selection could be fine if there were some way of "training people in" e.g. 'training' tooltips that say [Select Here] when the mouse is over the # column (or "Click here to select item").

Another option could be a qualifier key + a mouse click; but that's probably not very 'accessible' either ..

You say:

> Select an item, then SHFT Select another item & everything in between is selected

> <CTRL> Select item & user will be able to select non-contiguous items

Both of these work if you use the first column to select the item.

One thing that doesnt work is:

- once a group of items are selected, clicking an item while you have Control key pressed should (IMO) deselect the item (same as in explorer)

* there used be an option "Full-line selection" (may have been named differently) which IIRC meant that clicking anywhere in an item selected that item. I cant find it now - I know it was very buggy so it may have been removed. It should be pointed out that this (full-row selection) is NOT default explorer behaviour - in Explorer you have to click on the file-name i.e. in the text. I know that the lined grid structure in IQ causes one to think that clicking anywhere should select the item. How does this work in other PIMs ?? (I have very little experience with this type of app).

Another thing that should be pointed out is that Explorer's way of doing things is NOT easy either - but I think being as near as possible to it is a good idea.

BTW I'm not arguing that things should be difficult !! Personally, I hide the first column and use a shortcut to select an item - it makes single item selection dead easy. But for multiple items I need to re-show the # column.But once you actually get used to using that column for selection it works pretty much as Explorer so 'I think as said the 'training' might be the route forward.

Will leave this post as just about selecting...

[quote]

Another thing that should be pointed out is that Explorer's way of doing things is NOT easy either - but I think being as near as possible to it is a good idea.

[/quote]

I can't find it now, but I demonstrated somewhere how almost IQ is actually similar to explorer

1 - To drag and drop in Explorer, you have to click on the file name, editable area. Almost the same as IQ. However, IQ is actually more forgiving as you can actually click on any editable area of any column.

+1 for IQ in my book, since the item column is not necessarily the first one in someone's grid. It could even be nonexistent which would make selection annoying.

Now here's where there's a notable difference in the process of Drag & Drop : To drag and drop in Explorer, you need to :

a- first select your items, then b- Click again, drag & Drop.

In IQ, you just a- click in any editable area and drag. Even quicker IMO.

And if there was already a selection, you a- click in the selection, in an editable area... And drag.

2- To select in Explorer, you have to click anywhere except the filename column. Is that better ? Maybe, I don't know. In IQ, just click anywhere in a non editable areas. The logic behind this is similar to what I explained in #1

So there is a constant in all IQ drag and drop : editable area is for drag and drop or editing (when fields are dates, text, numbers, the mouse cursor changes so you know if it'S a n editable area), Non-editable area is... for click and drag for multiple selection.

Note : even famous file manager don't do things exactly like Explorer either... in Directory Opus, you can click on any editable area to drag and drop... Same as IQ. If you want to do multiple selection with the mouse, you need to do past the last column. That might be configurable though.

[quote]

Re Selection:

The first column is AFAIK the only default way to select an item. *

The thing with IQ (I think it's fair to say) is that editing is given priority over selecting/moving.

Maybe there could be an easier way that still doesnt affect editing methods (? have you any ideas there ?)

[/quote]

There are other ways. I'll check if these are in the manual.

1- You can assign any shortcut your want the the "Select item" button. (I personally assigned ctrl-alt-shift-S. I like it this way.)

2- you can turn on the option to NOT have multiple column selection (Grid-->Select Mode...)

[quote]

You [Jan] say:

> Select an item, then SHFT Select another item & everything in between is selected

> <CTRL> Select item & user will be able to select non-contiguous items

Both of these work if you use the first column to select the item.

One thing that doesnt work is:
- once a group of items are selected, clicking an item while you have Control key pressed should (IMO) deselect the item (same as in explorer)
[/quote]

Any column will work for multiple selection. As for non-contiguous selection/de-selection, that's a grid problem, a known one.

There's a Mantis issue for it and I'm sure Pierre will be happy to provide the fix once the grid provider... Fixes it.

__________

Re selection:

I'm concerned with the default selection methods cause these are what one is confronted with at the beginning. I actually think they're mostly okay, but figuring them out is not easy....

How about this idea (à la Total Commander) - a toolbar that shows at the bottom like a statusbar, which says something like

[To Select item, click in # column] [To Move click in any item editable area (text), hold & drag] [For more details/options see XYZ in help]

as a toolbar it could be turned off (and probably even customised). I have to say I like this idea.

______________________

Other methods of selection:

~ Using a shortcut is much easier for selection but no good for selecting multiple items (I believe)

~ Re "Full line" selection (Menu: Grid > Select Mode >Full Line):

It makes selection a doddle. The big disadvantage (for me) of it is that it's very difficult to move from cell to cell (using keyboard). I think double mouse click is the only way to edit an item. So it's definitely mouse orientated. Would that bother you Jan? See [How do I] Simply Copy Text from a Field ? for a discussion of full line selection pros and cons (2 years ago now but still valid I think). Pierre didnt use it cause you cannot select cells from more than one column in that mode.

Another idea - when you first install IQ, a wizard that asks you do you want this behaviour (mouse friendly) or this (keyboard friendly) and relevant options are selected. But again in the linked thread Armando is dubious even about keeping full line mode cause of it's limitations...

Quote Armando:

> 2- To select in Explorer, you have to click anywhere except the filename column. Is that better ? Maybe, I don't know.

> In IQ, just click anywhere in a non editable areas. The logic behind this is similar to what I explained in #1

Armando - shouldnt that be "In IQ, just click anywhere in editable areas" there ? (I notice I'm now unable to edit any previous posts which is a pain - I'm pretty sure I used to be able to edit the last one I made in each thread)

Quote Armando:

> Now here's where there's a notable difference in the process of Drag & Drop : To drag and drop in Explorer, you need to :

> a- first select your items, then b- Click again, drag & Drop. . . . In IQ, you just a- click in any editable area and drag.

That's actually incorrect - they both work exactly the same.

~ It would be good to see Jan's swf file (was anyone else able to open it?)

Tom,

I'm confining myself to the technical question of Jan's .swf file since I drag/drop at the rate of about 1 item per month

, but once I extracted it from the zip file I was able to run it without problems in both IE8 and FF 3.6 - on a machine that has Flash installed of course.

HTH

John

[quote=Tom]

Re selection

I'm concerned with the default selection methods cause these are what one is confronted with at the beginning. I actually think they're mostly okay, but figuring them out is not easy....

How about this idea (à la Total Commander) - a toolbar that shows at the bottom like a statusbar, which says something like

[To Select item, click in # column] [To Move click in any item editable area (text), hold & drag] [For more details/options see XYZ in help]

as a toolbar it could be turned off (and probably even customised). I have to say I like this idea.

[/quote]

Why not... The notification area could be used for that. But too many things to read, tips everywhere isn't necessarily a good solution.

[quote=Tom]

Other methods of selection:

~ Using a shortcut is much easier for selection but no good for selecting multiple items (I believe)

~ Re "Full line" selection (Menu: Grid > Select Mode >Full Line):

[/quote]

I agree with all that. I don't use full line selection by default as multiple column selection is a must in IQ. Hence, the slight difficulty to select full items.

[quote=Tom]
Another idea - when you first install IQ, a wizard that asks you do you want this behaviour (mouse friendly) or this (keyboard friendly) and relevant options are selected. But again in the linked thread Armando is dubious even about keeping full line mode cause of it's limitations...
[/quote]

I was probably partly not sure about keeping because when most user trigger it (F6), they usually wonder what's happening and post in the forum to know how to get rid of it.

[quote=Tom]

Quote Armando:

> 2- To select in Explorer, you have to click anywhere except the filename column. Is that better ? Maybe, I don't know.

> In IQ, just click anywhere in a non editable areas. The logic behind this is similar to what I explained in #1

[/quote]

Oops. I meant, more precisely, "mouse multiple selections", when you can drag and select. I'll edit my posts. The above is correct, but I forgot to say "mouse multiple selections by click-drag".

[quote=Tom]

Quote Armando:

> Now here's where there's a notable difference in the process of Drag & Drop : To drag and drop in Explorer, you need to :

> a- first select your items, then b- Click again, drag & Drop. . . . In IQ, you just a- click in any editable area and drag.

That's actually incorrect - they both work exactly the same.

[/quote]

You're right. Thanks.

Tom, Armando put me on to "Jing". That's the program that created the file.

Jan, I carefully watched your screencast to understand what problems user experiment.

Here's what I saw (but IMHO, you could've as well describe each of those yourself) :

1- (0:20 to ...) You seem to wonder why the moved item ends up at the end of the list and you keep moving it up the list. Well, if you had placed it in the right spot (among the subitems), you wouldn't have to do that. I.E. : a- put it among the sub-items where you want it and it will stay there. b- put it as an undefined child by dragging it on top of a parent, and it ends up at the end of the list -- it's a perfectly fine convention AFAIC.

Note (suggestion ?) : would user prefer to have the dropped item (on parent) placed at the top and not at the end of the sub items list ?

2- You keep going through the calendar tab and the focus moves to the calendar. Fine... But that's normal. That's what I'd expect... Not you ?

Note (suggestion ?) : maybe there could be a bigger delay before the focus changes to another grid ?

3- (0:36) You clicked and release so you went into edit mode instead of drag & drop. That's normal too. If you wanted to multiple select, you just had to press ctrl first. If you want to drag and drop : click and drag and drop. Simple. It works 100% of the time.

Note (suggestion ?) : I guess there could be an option so that edit takes 2 clicks, like explorer. I must say that since IQ isn't a file manager, I prefer one click... but to each his own.

4- (1:19s to 1:25s) There you obviously dropped your item in limbo , and seemingly re-clicked on another one and moved it to TL position... All this is normal. If you make a mistake, IQ will follow your mistakes. No ?

Question : what should've happened instead ?

5- (1:45s) You keep trying to move items by aiming at their bullet. Fine, but you COULD click anywhere on editable areas. Choosing to aim for the smallest target to accomplish what you could accomplish by aiming at something much bigger seems a bit strange to me. It becomes a personal choice.

Note : I tried moving items by clicking on their bullet and it worked 100% of the time -- even if not convenient. I really wonder if it's something with your mouse.

5- (2:00) You click outside the so called "editable area" (the mouse cursor changes) and so you click and drag and seem to make a multiple selection instead of moving the item. That seems normal to me too.

Question : what should've happened instead ? How to improve that (make it more standard)?

[quote=Tom]

To select multiple items: keeping Control key pressed, click in the # column for each item you want to select

[/quote]

The CTRL key behaviour is incorrect when Grid >> Select Mode = Multi-Column. It is fine for Full Line. The grid supplier has been informed.

(p.s. The reason why using the # column works, is that doig so switches to Full Line mode automatically.)

Hi Pierre. From your post, I gather there is a problem w the <CTRL>+Click function. This is the area where I am reporting troubles with drag / drop to create a new parent. I'm wondering if there aren't other issues w this function that the supplier may not be aware of which is causing some of this on certain machines, OS.... or ????

So, for the moment, as I understand it:

IQ must be in Full Line mode to drag / drop (either move or copy) successfully (or can a user drag a selected column?)

(I always thought selected column was primarily meant for printing or exporting functions)

If Main Menu > Grid > Select Mode = multi-column, user MUST click on # column to drag / drop (either copy or move)

If Main Menu > Grid> Select Mode = Full Line, user can use dot or text to drag / drop (either copy or move)

Do I have this right?

[quote=jan_rifkinson]

[/quote]

This problem is well known and in Mantis. It's not new or anything.

What Pierre meant is that it's a know issue where multiple non-contiguous selection is not as easy when "multiple column " mode is ON. The workaround, as mentioned at least 2 times in this thread, is to use the # column to be able to ctrl-click your way to multiple selection...!

[quote]

So, for the moment, as I understand it:

IQ must be in Full Line mode to drag / drop (either move or copy) successfully (or can a user drag a selected column?)

(I always thought selected column was primarily meant for printing or exporting functions)

If Main Menu > Grid > Select Mode = multi-column, user MUST click on # column to drag / drop (either copy or move)

If Main Menu > Grid> Select Mode = Full Line, user can use dot or text to drag / drop (either copy or move)

Do I have this right?

[/quote]

That's not what I understood. Maybe I didn't read the same post but he didn't talk about drag and drop. Only multiple selection...Pierre can try explaining if he wishes to.

Here's the original post (my emphasis) :

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

[quote=Tom]

To select multiple items: keeping Control key pressed, click in the # column for each item you want to select

[/quote]

The CTRL key behaviour is incorrect when Grid >> Select Mode = Multi-Column. It is fine for Full Line. The grid supplier has been informed.

(p.s. The reason why using the # column works, is that doig so switches to Full Line mode automatically.)

[/quote]

Jan

try out Full line select mode and see if it suits you. I'm not that familiar with it but I think you cant go wrong with it in terms of selecting and moving - I listed it's drawbacks above.

As Armando says your questions in this last post have been answered here again and again. I would suggest just experimenting. Maybe print out the relevant help page and try the different settings on a sample database. I'll have a look at the help page and see if it's all there.

Jan,

as I said above, I'm curious how other PIM's you've used work as they may give us some ideas.

I think part of the problem here is that these are "tell me" posts as opposed to a "show me" situation. If you had never used Explorer and I tried to explain it with words it would be at least as difficult. (Again I'm not at all arguing that things should not be changed, just exploring the situation)

I'll try to compare the two (default behaviour) in more detail by editing this post

[quote=Tom]

> So, if I understand correctly,

> you can put your cursor anywhere on the item & complete functions under "A"

not quite "anywhere on the item":

To move an item (if not using the bullet or the first column) you must click in the text and drag" (clicking in blank part of a cell will allow you to make a selection by dragging)

SAME AS EXPLORER

> Where do you place your cursor when drag / drop multiple items?

To select multiple items: keeping Control key pressed, click in the # column for each item you want to select

SIMILAR: IN EXPLORER you have to click on the file name. In IQ you also need to be able to select the cell hence the difference.

To move them: (again, if not using the bullet or the first column) you must click in the text of any selected item and drag - all the selected items will move.

SAME AS EXPLORER

Again if you just want to show the items elsewhere (not move them), keep Control key pressed when dragging items with the mouse (release the mouse button first, then the control key.)

IN EXPLORER THIS COPIES AN ITEM which is different (and could be used as an argument for changing the default qualifier key) but in the context here, the point is that the method is familiar to Explorer users.

[/quote]

I've added some details to our summary of IQ vs explorer mouse actions. I actually created a comparison table between the two for mouse operations there : Drag-and-drop and other common UI operations

Please edit it, make it better, etc. :-)

@Tom: Thanks for the above post, trying to tie down the loose ends from the issue that I started.

@ Armando: Thanks for the comparison chart; I'm going there next

My goal is to make IQ as "dummy-friendly" as possible.

My view is the only way to do this is to challenge every command to see if it is generally known & understood

This is no small feat as the program is so creative, it's sometimes hard to get one's arms around all its capablities.

So while some IQ functions may work under certain circumstances (that only IQ users know), I'd like to see if using these functions can become more universal, i..e the less special training one needs to use it, the better. Where that's impossible for technical reasons, then the next best thing are descriptive dialogs that help guide the newbie.

In this particular case, I find this relatively simple task of drag / drop (move vs copy) to be a PITA for some reason. Just the way I find printing to be more complex than I think it should be.

Please don't tell me it's not really copying but actually giving a single item another parent. I understand that but I have to ask you -- as a practical matter -- which is easier to explain conceptually. I think that should be the benchmark. I love working w computers but I couldn't care less how they work.

[quote=jan_rifkinson]

[/quote]

Sure. So what are you suggestion, concretely ? You'd really prefer Pierre/IQ to tell new users that ctrl drag and drop copies (meaning : duplicates) an item to another location ?

if you get a chance you could check out the related manual page: Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop

Tom, I think you may have found "THE word". "Showing" the copied item in multiple locations may be it. For me, it's a lot clearer & adding "if you update this item in it's new location, it will be updated wherever else it is displayed." makes it EXTREMELY clear to me. However the following " it will actually be the same item as the one you copied - it will be displayed here as well as in it's original location(s)" however true it is only complicates the explanation IMO even though it is technically correct. Adding "An item can be shown/displayed in as many locations as you want." i.e. it can have multiple parents is clear to me. Put the above together & see how it works for you.

~ second option involves showing the 'copied' item in this new location - i.e it will actually be the same item as the one you copied - it will be displayed here as well as in it's original location(s) -- if you update this item in it's new location, it will be updated wherever else it is displayed.

Clipped from: http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/1155 On: 9/15/2010 12:15 PM By: Jan

to show an item in a new location while keeping it in the current location (i.e. like the second option in Pasting above) press the Control key while dragging the item to it's new location - it will now show in both locations. An item can be shown/displayed in as many locations as you want.

Clipped from: http://www.sqlnotes.net/drupal5/index.php?q=node/1155 On: 9/15/2010 12:15 PM By: Jan

"Showing" is a good term. +1 (I actually used Tom's formulation there : Drag-and-drop and other common UI operations -- again, please edit as you see fit...)

[quote=jan_rifkinson]

[/quote]

Show the copied item in this new location - if you update this item, it will be updated wherever it is displayed.

An item can be shown/displayed in as many locations as you want.

[edit] Agreed Jan, that combo works well [/edit]

With that in mind I will now go look at the copy paste page Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop

___________________

Jan I noticed there:

Tools >>Options >>General >>Grid now has the option to expand an item with children on single-click (or double-click).

If you select "on double-click", drag-drop is initiated by clicking and dragging the bullet

That option might also suit you?

EDIT - I edited the above ^ quote ^ (in the manual). It now reads:

* Menu: Tools >Options >Program Settings >Grid now has the option to expand an item with children on a single-click

If this is disabled, (i.e. to expand you need to double-click the bullet) a single click will select the item.

You can select & drag (in one go) via click + drag on the item bullet no matter what those settings are

[quote=Tom]

[quote=jan_rifkinson]

[/quote]

Show the copied item in this new location - if you update this item, it will be updated wherever it is displayed.

An item can be shown/displayed in as many locations as you want.

[edit] Agreed Jan, that combo works well [/edit]

With that in mind I will now go look at the copy paste page Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop

___________________

Jan I noticed there:

Tools >>Options >>General >>Grid now has the option to expand an item with children on single-click (or double-click).

If you select "on double-click", drag-drop is initiated by clicking and dragging the bullet

That option might also suit you?

EDIT - I edited the above ^ quote ^ (in the manual). It now reads:

* Menu: Tools >Options >Program Settings >Grid now has the option to expand an item with children on a single-click

If this is disabled, (i.e. to expand you need to double-click the bullet) a single click will select the item.

You can select & drag (in one go) via click + drag on the item bullet no matter what those settings are [/quote]

Tom, Does the following say the same thing?

Tools >>Options >>General >>Grid now has the option to expand an item with children on single-click

User can click on the item bullet & drag no matter what that setting is

getting there Jan ;-)

but you missed out on the main point (in the context of this thread)

~ if the setting is expand by double-click, you can then select the item with a single click on the bullet

(otherwise a single click will expand the item)

I can see I try get too articulate in my explanations lol -

how's this, including the selection bit

Menu: Tools >Options >Program Settings >Grid >Expand on Single Click - a single click on the item bullet will expand an item with children (this is enabled by default).

If this is disabled, a double-click is required to expand the item. A single click on the bullet will then select the item.

~ You can click on the item bullet & drag no matter what that setting is.

Okay, you've inspired me to some testing Armando

Any problem's I have within grids or between grids are probably to do with impatience - I'll try to be more aware in future and if I do have a problem I'll report here - but it is working fine now.

Where I do regularly have a problem is with dragging a file onto a grid (I do this almost as often as moving items within IQ).

Usually I want to create a sub-item:

Often the sub-item arrow doesnt show.
The dragged file often does end up as a sub-item all the same (cause I know pretty much where to drop it), but sometimes it becomes a sibling.

Again I'll keep an eye on this over the next short while & report back if there's any more details.

Re the related manual page Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop

Was going to change the title to

Item Copy & Paste, Selection, and Drag & Drop

The last section needs to be expanded to include topics covered here - something similar to the ground covered by Armando's table comparing IQ & Explorer

My idea (attempting to keep it simple) is to first describe "Default Behaviour" and use footnotes in a following section to describe "Variations depending on options/settings"

___________________________________________

Default Behaviour

1. Selection [1] [2]

2. Multi-line selection [2]

3. Selection + Drag & Drop

4. Showing an item in another location etc.

Variations depending on options/settings

[1] If the option xyz is etc. etc. you can select like etc. etc.

[2] blah blah ;-)

___________________________________________

Shout if you have ideas or better ideas or objections, whatever.

PS Jan -

I only made minor changes to it yet, will incorporate your suggestions as I go along, thanks.

Tom, Just MO but wherever possible I think Pierre's dialogs & your instructions should employ the same terms &/or phrases & if that proves awkward, then I would conclude we should look @ changing them.

[quote=jan_rifkinson]

[/quote]

Agreed -

is that an 'in general' tip for editing the page - or are there specific things you think should be changed on the page?

[ - or in the dialogs? - Tom ducks and runs for cover :-) ]

[quote=Tom][/quote]

Agreed -

is that an 'in general' tip for editing the page - or are there specific things you think should be changed on the page?

[ - or in the dialogs? - Tom ducks and runs for cover :-) ]

[/quote]

It's an "in general" for the help manual

On this forum we discuss dialogs trying to find the right words

Once that's agreed upon or Pierre closes the discussion

then I think every effort should be made to use those words

If that doesn't work w/o turning the instruction into a pretzel to make make a decent sentence, then I would say we should go back & look @ the dialog

Does this make sense to you as a gen'l rule of thumb?

At some point comparing the dialogs against the instructions might be a useful exercise (I'm good at suggesting chores for others)

Well I had a quick go at the drag n drop page again this afternoon:

Please reread that section "Selecting an Item and moving it using Drag & Drop"

Item Copy & Paste - Selection - Drag & Drop

probably too quick (the edit) - will read again tomorrow to see if it still makes sense to me !! - I've discovered a few quirks of select and drag n drop along the way.

Which means that it's pretty wordy - I've tried to keep it straight forward, I dont know if simple is possible.

If you have ideas comment here or edit directly if you want

None this works for me. I've even tried on two different keyboards. Something is really screwy here or elsewhere. Very frustrated !!

My settings are as described, i.e.

[1] IF Menu: Tools >Options >Programme Settings >Grids: Expand [Item] on a single-click is deselected, you can select an item by clicking on it's bullet

(this option is selected by default)

[2] Menu: Grid >Selection Mode... >Full Line / Multi-Columns

a) Multi-Columns is the default setting - behavior as described in table above.

Drag & drop and selection of items is comparable to how these operations work in Windows Explorer

	Actions	Mouse operation	Where to click	Comparison with Explorer	Notes
1.	Move Items	Click + Drag & Drop	Click in any editable area of the item	Similar In Explorer (XP) you click on the filename column, the only editable column, to drag & drop	See [3] below
2.	Select a cell	Click	Click in non-editable area
3.	Select an item	Click	Click in the # column	Similar	See [1], [2] below
4.	Select multiple items (adjacent)	Shift + Click	Click in the # column	Similar
4a.	[as above]	Click + Drag	Click in a non-editable area	Similar
5.	Select multiple items (non-adjacent)	Ctrl + Click	Click in the # column	Similar
6.	Drag & Drop an item to show it in a different location	Ctrl + Click + Drag & Drop	Click in an editable area of the item	Similar to Copy in Explorer but with a different result in IQ. See Notes >>	the item will now show in both locations. If you update this item, it will be updated wherever it is displayed. (In IQ, an item can be shown/displayed in as many locations as you want)
7.	Create Shortcuts (Hyperlinks)	Alt + Click + Drag & Drop	>>>>>	Similar	Not yet implemented using drag & drop. Hyperlinks can currently be created via the item context menu

Settings which can affect selection (when they are changed from default)

[1] IF Menu: Tools >Options >Programme Settings >Grids: Expand [Item] on a single-click is deselected, you can select an item by clicking on it's bullet

(this option is selected by default)

[2] Menu: Grid >Selection Mode... >Full Line / Multi-Columns

a) Multi-Columns is the default setting - behavior as described in table above.

b) With Full Line selection, you can click anywhere on an item to select it. ~ Note that Full Line selection is very mouse-centric. Many navigation keys will not work in this mode: you have to double-click in a cell to edit - F2 and Tab key dont work; you cannot select an individual cell etc.

For a discussion of pros and cons of this setting see the forum thread [How do I] Simply Copy Text from a Field ?

[3] Bug: Re - click in item text and drag - to move an item:

if the item you want to drag and drop contains a link and you click on the link and drag - the last selected item will be moved.

Workaround: the item has to be selected before dragging

Hi Jan,

Thanks for your post. I'm not sure I understand however. You're quoting a book page aren't you ? Because it does not behave as stated ?

Also,

>Note that Full Line selection is very mouse-centric. Many navigation keys will not work in this mode: you have to double-click in a cell to edit - F2 and Tab key dont work; you cannot select an individual cell etc.

All key navigation also work in Full Line selection mode, including F2 and tab

I'm improving item selection in .0.9.25D:

Right-click >> Select item
Hold shift or ctrl and you'll be able to click anywhere on the item (no need to use the # column)

HTH !

Hi Pierrre, Yes, I was quoting a book page.

IMHO the problem is that Tom has worked patiently & diligently & mightily to explain a very simple function that seems to be very complicated in IQ, i.e. under certain conditions user can click here.... or there... but if "x" exists then user has to something else & so forth. Yes, I know I am exaggerating a bit & there may be technical reasons for this but -- in any & all cases -- I think it should be simplified tremendously.

There is much too much for the user to consider.

For example, column selection vs full line selection. If this causes user to apply different steps to moving or copying an item to another parent, then maybe only line selection OR column selection should become available when that function is engaged. . As you know I am not a programmer but as a user I can tell you it is too damned complicated for the average user-- again IMHO.

Yes, what you are suggesting should help.

And, as always, I thank you for a wonderful program that I use every day to keep track of EVERYTHING I DO OR WANT TO DO IN MY DAILY LIFE. That includes, Journals, research for articles, writing articles, musing as to my future, capturing stuff, etc., etc. etc.

And if all goes well, I will apply the Gantt charting to some renovation projects slated for my house next year. If that happens you can expect a slew of question charting, etc.

[quote=Pierre_Admin]

Hold shift or ctrl and you'll be able to click anywhere on the item (no need to use the # column)[/quote]

that sound good